SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships • Hacker News Board

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#751

Post by robotresearcher » Fri, May 17, 2019, 6:32 AM UTC

pathseeker wrote: post #728

robotresearcher wrote: post #711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the feeling, but how about if we rephrase it from another viewpoint: I don’t know why I should be punished because my parents didn’t succeed financially. I work hard in highschool but don’t have extra private tutoring or parents who can help me with calculus homework. I’m hard working and bright but how can I compete with kids from Saratoga High School where everyone’s parents went to MIT/Penn and work a…

By the time you hit the SAT it's too late. If you aren't qualified enough to do well on the SAT then, you are going to struggle and hold classmates back more-so than the peer you displaced would have. Offer free additional after-school programs, etc in high school to solve the problem. You don't make a slow runner faster by moving the finish line closer for him/her.

> By the time you hit the SAT it's too late.

We should maintain some real alternate paths for kids for whom this timing is bad.

I grew up on on welfare and left school at 15. Was smart but troubled. Worked dumb jobs for a while. Benefitted from enlightened admissions policy and eventually graduated from $VERYGOODSCHOOL. I worked hard and did just fine. My kids are privileged and my late career is fun and rewarding. I want to do all I can to pass on these opportunities to the next generation of kids like me.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#752

Post by Dylan16807 » Fri, May 17, 2019, 6:32 AM UTC

lenkite wrote: post #572

GhostVII wrote: post #215

I think instead of trying to lower the bar for low income students, we should work on solving the actual problems causing them to perform more poorly on the SAT (or adjust the SAT so it is more representative of their actual skills). If students are accepted with a lower SAT score because of their background, they are likely going to struggle in University, since they have lower scores than the rest of their class, s…

I believe all the problems you have mentioned can be easily solved. Permit adversity scores to weigh in favour of course grades and graduate honors. Legislation can be passed to ensure adversity scores count towards corporate and government employment to prevent any bumps further down the road. Furthermore, adversity scores should also be counted towards recruitment in elite military units, selection for senior milit…

Disingenuous mockery doesn't help.

(If you actually believe that's where people are trying to go then I have worse insults for you.)

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#753

Post by rexpop » Fri, May 17, 2019, 6:35 AM UTC

yibg wrote: post #750

Fundamentally I think pretty much everyone agrees on the concept of equal opportunity. But what people don't seem to agree on is the definition of equal opportunity. Or even I guess what is opportunity? If we have 2 people, A and B. A belongs to a wealthy family and lives in a nice neighborhood and goes to a nice high school. B has a poorer family, lives in a worse neighborhood and goes to a worse high school. What w…

I was with you until the very last sentence.

Look, it's a question of implementation. There's a quantitative threshold at which students qualify for admission. Either we change that threshold, or we fudge the score.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#754

Post by qazpot » Fri, May 17, 2019, 6:35 AM UTC

robotresearcher wrote: post #711

remote_phone wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I already talked to my wife about this. I would retire, we would divorce, and I would rent a shitty apartment in East Palo Alto all the while living in our house. If they think they can boil my kids into a single number without bothering to find the context of who my kids are then I will game it to as much as possible. I don’t know why my family should be punished because my wife and I worked our asses off to get ahe…

I understand the feeling, but how about if we rephrase it from another viewpoint: I don’t know why I should be punished because my parents didn’t succeed financially. I work hard in highschool but don’t have extra private tutoring or parents who can help me with calculus homework. I’m hard working and bright but how can I compete with kids from Saratoga High School where everyone’s parents went to MIT/Penn and work a…

> Why does my parents’ achievement have a fundamental impact on my opportunities?

Because they are your parents and they will have an impact on your life whether you like it or not, right down from the genes you inherit to the kind of people you hang out with. So yes there achievement will have an impact on your opportunities.

What you want can only happen when parents are no longer associated with their children in any way and all children are raised by the State so that everyone can be provided "equal opportunities" and even then the type of genes you inherit will impact your opportunities because although social inequality has been removed, biological inequalities can never be removed.

So no your children or not equal to anybody else's children and yes what you do in life will have an impact on your children's life that's how life works.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#755

Post by WillPostForFood » Fri, May 17, 2019, 6:35 AM UTC

rlue wrote: post #746

GhostVII wrote: post #215

I think instead of trying to lower the bar for low income students, we should work on solving the actual problems causing them to perform more poorly on the SAT (or adjust the SAT so it is more representative of their actual skills). If students are accepted with a lower SAT score because of their background, they are likely going to struggle in University, since they have lower scores than the rest of their class, s…

100%. To truly level the playing field requires far earlier intervention (of the sort we see through LeBron James' I Promise initiative), and is entirely beyond the ability of the College Board or even the university system as a whole. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions. > (or adjust the SAT so it is more representative of their actual skills). The problem, as you point out just one sentence later, is…

Why fixate on Harvard? It can only ever serve a few thousand kids. There are hundreds of universities and colleges that can provide a good education and more than a fair shot. The problem isn't a poor kid who graduates from University of Wisconsin or University of Colorado instead of Harvard or Stanford, it is the kid who didn't even graduate high school, can't really read, and isn't prepared to show up at work in the morning, let alone do the job.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#756

Post by rexpop » Fri, May 17, 2019, 6:37 AM UTC

newen wrote: post #466

Apocryphon wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are all great ideas, but the disadvantaged children in the schools this mechanism is trying to help probably don't go to schools that offer those benefits.

Well yes...the person you're replying to is saying that those schools should get enough funding (and whatever else) so that they can offer those benefits.

And where's that funding going to come from? Currently, we're funding schools in proximity to household wealth.

Perhaps increasing poor working families' wealth is the solution that fits in with our current setup.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#757

Post by WillPostForFood » Fri, May 17, 2019, 6:40 AM UTC

robotresearcher wrote: post #711

remote_phone wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I already talked to my wife about this. I would retire, we would divorce, and I would rent a shitty apartment in East Palo Alto all the while living in our house. If they think they can boil my kids into a single number without bothering to find the context of who my kids are then I will game it to as much as possible. I don’t know why my family should be punished because my wife and I worked our asses off to get ahe…

I understand the feeling, but how about if we rephrase it from another viewpoint: I don’t know why I should be punished because my parents didn’t succeed financially. I work hard in highschool but don’t have extra private tutoring or parents who can help me with calculus homework. I’m hard working and bright but how can I compete with kids from Saratoga High School where everyone’s parents went to MIT/Penn and work a…

Truth is, college admissions from Saratoga is a blood bath with so many over qualified, over worked, over stressed kids. If you are the oddball kid in a worse school and worse neighborhood and you're motivated enough to watch Khan Academy you are going stand out and do great, whether you end up at SJSU or Stanford.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#758

Post by Dylan16807 » Fri, May 17, 2019, 6:40 AM UTC

brankoB wrote: post #552

berbec wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it both? There are only X spots per school. Every person being helped up and admitted is someone being pulled back and denied. I have no opinion on this debate, but school admissions are a zero-sum-game, afaik.

In terms of school admissions I would agree. In terms of society in general however i'm not entirely convinced that it's a zero sum game.

Oh in terms of something like money, taking X dollars from the richest and using it to help the poorest is extremely positive sum.

This might be true for college admissions too, if you're flush with opportunities you're still ahead if you lose one.

But there's still an aspect of "pulling people back". It's a hard tradeoff to design. But if you do it right you really can make something with better outcomes and more fairness, even if some will call it an abomination.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#759

Post by djtriptych » Fri, May 17, 2019, 6:42 AM UTC

thrower123 wrote: post #597

djtriptych wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your intact family sticking together for your childhood and making a sustained sacrifice for your benefit already represents several awesome advantages many, many, many kids will never enjoy. You didn't eat out much so... home cooked meals most nights? You lived in a good school district? You had parents and/or other family as a support structure for 12 years? You had a dad? Imagine having none of those things.

What is with this sentiment that we have to try to make people ashamed for doing things the right way and working hard? Be proud of what you have accomplished. Fuck the people that want to tear you down because there's some poor wretch that "deserves" a shot more than you do.

Don't be ashamed. Do expand your viewpoint beyond yourself.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#760

Post by Dylan16807 » Fri, May 17, 2019, 6:44 AM UTC

pathseeker wrote: post #731

jachee wrote: post #722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The system is pre-rigged against: • People of color • LGBTQ • Lower-than-upper-middle-class • Divorced and/or single-parent homes • Rural families You talk about the decisions you made. The fact that you even had a choice is a privilege denied to many. For each of the above that you didn't have to overcome, that's a way the system is rigged in your favor. Your children won't be disadvantaged in any way, and you're fr…

Did you even read the comment? Child of immigrant barely in middle class is not privilege.

There are different dimensions to privilege. For example even the worst-off class born in the US still has some advantages from being a US citizen.