James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google • Hacker News Board

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#751

Post by stcredzero » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 1:52 AM UTC

rainbowmverse wrote: post #428

mightykan wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“... a stupid political game he didn’t even realize he was playing.” Bullshit! He’s smart enough to work at Google but didn’t realize he was playing a stupid game? I am glad that his life is ruined and that he is toxic and non-hirable. I hope this lawsuit doesn’t go anywhere (very likely since Google has all the money, resources and motivation to crush it).

I'm about as left wing as it gets, but I don't want to see the guy ruined. Retributive justice is how we get the drug war working with the broken prison system to create an underclass. I want to see James Damore understand the impact of his words and learn from it. I don't want him thrown out of society for a single really big mistake and a poor handling of the consequences.

I want to see James Damore understand the impact of his words and learn from it.

It's quite evident from reports in the news media, that there was tremendous emotional impact. The fact that so many people could be so extremely triggered is very telling, but it doesn't actually speak to James Damore being some kind of villain, or his words being somehow horrible. If a whole bunch of adults stop behaving like adults and start exhibiting striking intellectual dishonesty, I think this is very revealing indeed.

I ask this as a member of the Left, who wonders: When did the Left stop being the side of free speech and intellectual honesty? When it finally felt powerful enough in the culture to have become corrupted by that cultural power.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#752

Post by mistermann » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 1:52 AM UTC

ryguytilidie wrote: post #524

mistermann wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it felt like James was pretty disingenuous and lacked a general understanding of how to behave in a workplace To be fair, it can be difficult for some people on the autism spectrum to work in environments where you have to run objective reality through various "politically correct" adjustment filters before reacting to it.

So it sounds like you agree with me that he lacked an understanding of how to behave in a workplace?

I agree only in a sense similar to how people in a wheelchair lack the capability to access public spaces in the same way as non-disabled people do.

It's funny how even in a highly logical technical community the conversations on certain topics are the same as you'd find elsewhere.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#753

Post by eesmith » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 1:52 AM UTC

josephg wrote: post #539

logfromblammo wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neurology and psychology studies have shown differences in the way men and women think. For example, when navigating, men tend to use dead reckoning, while women tend to prefer landmarks. Similar differences may exist with respect to the modes of thinking useful for engineering. With that in mind, consider that our current modal computer architecture and programming paradigms were designed and implemented by men. The…

That’s an interesting idea, but it sounds like your argument rests on two assertions: 1) Professions tend to become more gender biased over time 2) It was equally likely that computing become a female dominated field. These are novel claims that require justification. If (1) was true, we should expect to see it in other fields. But many industries seem quite stubbornly gender neutral - for example medicine. (Although…

"My understanding is that generally the direction of gender bias we see in other highly gender biased fields is consistent cross-culturally. (nurse,"

Your understanding isn't correct, at least for nursing.

Nurses were male until the 1800s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_in_nursing#History give examples of predominately nurses and caregivers in other cultures before that time. http://minoritynurse.com/rethinking-gender-stereotypes-in-nu... says "Before modern day nursing, men were nurses, not women. The earliest recorded nursing school was established in India around 250 B.C. It was exclusively for men; women were not allowed to attend because it was believed that women were not as pure as men."

What happened in the 1800s? Quoting from https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1081399.pdf :

> Through the efforts of Florence Nightingale in the mid-nineteenth century, nursing was established as a women's profession (Hus, Chen & Lou, 2010). Nightingale's image of the nurse as subordinate, nurturing, domestic, humble, and self-sacrificing, as well as not too educated, became prevalent in society. The American Nursing Association ostracized men from nursing until 1930, when as a "result of a bylaw amendment, provision was made for male nurses to become members of the American Nurses' Association" (In Review - American Nurses' Association, p. 6). Looking back in nursing history, Florence Nightingale, and the American Nursing Association ostracized men from the nursing profession.'

See also http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2648.1997.... , "History appears to indicate that men have had a place in nursing for as long as records are available, but their contribution has been perceived as negligible, largely because of the dominant influence that the 19th century female nursing movement has had on the occupation's historical ideology."

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#754

Post by Idontknowmyuser » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 1:53 AM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #694

Zanni wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's shifting rapidly. Women are very close to 50% of medical school graduates as of 2015. [1] [1] https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/medical-school-gra...

Women reached parity in law school graduation about two decades ago, but still lag in practicing law, becoming partners and becoming judges today so it may not be changing all that rapidly just based on that single statistic.

I don't have experience in law, but maybe those stats just need time to change. People that graduated from post-parity need time to reach the level of seniority needed.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#755

Post by jblow » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 1:53 AM UTC

s73ver_ wrote: post #735

maoistinquisitr wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the heckler's veto. Free speech is a cultural matter, not just a protection from the federal and state governments.

But now you're getting into the "free speech for me, not for thee" part. You're basically saying that Damore is entitled to free speech and protection, but that Google and his former co-workers are not. Remember, who you work with is part of the freedom of association which is a component of free speech.

Firing someone is speech? A whole lot of laws disagree with you about that.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#756

Post by skmurphy » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 1:55 AM UTC

rhapsodic wrote: post #434

threeseed wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No that just isn't how life does or should work. You make mistakes in an industry and you own the impacts to your reputation. He has done serious harm to the work of so many by his actions and absolutely deserves to own the consequences. And let's be serious here he has zero chance of winning against Google.

> And let's be serious here he has zero chance of winning against Google. Don't be so sure of that. Federal law prohibits firing an employee who is trying to improve working conditions. And that's what he is claiming he was doing with his memo. And there are a number female SJW Google employees who have made really vicious, public, anti-male statements and no one batted an eyelash. So I think his claim of gender-base…

In a jury trial there are few certainties. The other questions are who else joins the class and what gets discovered.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#757

Post by dotnetisnotdead » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 1:56 AM UTC

Gusbenz wrote: post #685

dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is part of her job, but it wasn't covered in the interview process from what I've been told.

Does she even bother looking at the docs or would that also denote how useless she is?

Well, she is learning it now and I wouldn't call her "useless". But her level of experience and knowledge is far below "software engineer" and if she were a guy she couldn't get away with it.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#758

Post by DoofusOfDeath » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 1:56 AM UTC

Digory wrote: post #648

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Americans, even those who attend good schools, do not understand statistical claims. I'm having some difficulty understanding your statement. Would you mind clarifying a few things? - Do you mean all Americans, or just some? - When you say "do not understand", what do you mean by that? - I'm unclear as to why you specifically mentioned Americans. Are you comparing them to some other group(s)? And if so, which one(s…

>I'm having some difficulty understanding your statement. Heh. I rest my case. But, to respond directly: of course, I'm speaking colloquially to suggest many Americans. I specifically mention Americans because this discussion is about an American suing an American company, in a kerfuffle over American ideals (and law) of sex nondiscrimination. American education norms seem to leave even bright people susceptible to d…

> Heh. I rest my case.

I'm Irish.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#759

Post by stcredzero » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 1:57 AM UTC

novia wrote: post #118

fahadkhan wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't much like what Damore appears to say but in fairness that sentence does not say "less capable". That he uses "in part" and "may explain" means that it doesn't say much at all while appearing to say something, to me at least.

It appears to me that in part this may be explained by him attempting to cover his ass.

It appears to me that in part this may be explained by him attempting to cover his ass.

So it's your projection of what you assume he really thinks. What evidence are you basing this on?

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#760

Post by flukus » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 1:59 AM UTC

debt wrote: post #257

bsaul wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's the spirit. Let's burn the witch. Unless i missed something, the guy never advocated violence or gender discrimination, or making anyone's life miserable. He expressed opinion on scientific explanation. You may find it very stupid, but what in your mind makes you think it's OK to destroy a man's life for his opinion, and then i suppose pretend to be someone with high moral grounds.

It's never okay to destroy a man's life, but he made a poor choice to have his life destroyed. I don't know why he did that. People do stupid things all the time. Centuries of gender discrimination, in a field that is very publicly plagued by it, in a world that is still broken with it, what was Damore thinking? Everyone has the freedom to act, but no one has freedom from the consequences of the act.

> It's never okay to destroy a man's life, but he made a poor choice to have his life destroyed.

Did he leak the memo to the press to cause the outrage? No he didn't, so he is not responsible for the PR whirlwind created by it. Those who leaked the internal corporate communication are responsible and they should be fired.