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Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

susanjfowler.com

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Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#751

Post by SturgeonsLaw »

wheelerwj wrote: post #298
projektir wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a pro-drinking culture at my company due to the nature of the business and I haven't found that it's causing any problems. It's generally done outside of work or for specific events, and I've never felt unsafe on any gathering where a lot of drinking was going on. This is a red herring, if anything. I think there's a difference between a culture where people drink a lot vs a culture where people get black out…

> We have a pro-drinking culture at my company due to the nature of the business what? what possible nature of business are you in that makes drinking more (or less) acceptable. There is no such thing. at work, you work. if you want to get drunk, you aren't working.

Ever worked in hospitality? I can assure you that there are workplaces out there where drinking on the job is expected.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#753

Post by solidsnack9000 »

weberc2 wrote: post #530
knucklesandwich wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, it should be all tech workers that unionize, not just software engineers. And you should talk to some of your fellow workers and ask if they all think they're being fairly compensated. Even aside from the issue of salary, tech workers are rarely given a fair stake in ownership in the company, and their equity grants often come with lots of clauses to deprive them from what little stake they have. I sugg…

> And you should talk to some of your fellow workers and ask if they all think they're being fairly compensated. Even aside from the issue of salary, tech workers are rarely given a fair stake in ownership in the company, and their equity grants often come with lots of clauses to deprive them from what little stake they have. Who decides what is fair? You? Tech workers? Speaking about fairness as though it's objectiv…

> If they can't find better jobs, they're getting a fair deal.

In an idealized market, yes. But given incidents like this, it seems like some employees must be being treated for more fairly than others -- which suggests there's no fairness at all.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#754

Post by rodgerd »

hueving wrote: post #717
jaxn wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once received a bottle of wine as a Christmas bonus from the founders of the small startup I worked at. I was the only person on the the who didn't drink and was pretty offended. Especially since it was well known that I didn't drink since this company celebrated "beer thirty" every Friday.

>was pretty offended You were offended by a gift? Just say thanks and give it away or throw it away. The vast majority of company gifts are useless to many people. Most people can cloth themselves, buy drinks for themselves, buy bags for themselves, etc and have no need for whatever crap the company is getting them as a sign of appreciation. Unless they demanded you chug the wine in front of them, you really should n…

> You were offended by a gift?

If I give an observant Jew a kilo of bacon as a gift, why shouldn't they be offended by my being an arsehole?

Same thing.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#755

Post by grandalf »

People are quick to point the finger at Uber's management, culture, etc.

But after reading through Susan's reflections, the core problem seems to be in the HR department.

Allowing repeat offenses like Susan describes exposes Uber (as well as individual managers) to significant legal liability (in CA and NY, and possibly elsewhere).

Any qualified HR person knows and understands these liabilities and makes a very strong case to top management that proper conduct must be enforced.

Susan, you are probably entitled to legal remedies for what you went through because the offender had already been warned. The manager in question (and his manager) will also be subject to direct penalties under California law.

If you don't do it for yourself, do it for the many other women who will suffer through the same indignities and might not be as empowered as you were to take action.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#756

Post by arjie »

knucklesandwich wrote: post #133
calcsam wrote: post #15

In case anyone isn't sure why the original interaction is harassment: relationships within a reporting chain are generally prohibited, for both legal, ethical, and practical reasons. Sex becoming part of the effective job description crosses both legal and ethical lines, and team effectiveness is hindered when people wonder whether someone is getting special treatment because they're sleeping with the boss. A manager…

Tech workers (across all disciplines) need to unionize to combat this kind of thing. As has been pointed out below, HR that is staffed and incentivized by the company management only serves the interests of the management. A union is the only structure that can actually win demands for workers by organizing workers to withhold their labor. It's not a panacea, and there are several historical examples of union leaders…

Good luck. I'll never join. I know what you guys want (because enough of you have stated it on HN): no more H1Bs and to make sure I never find a job again because I'm a foreigner. I'll scab that union till kingdom come.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#757

Post by grandalf »

grey-area wrote: post #281
ChuckMcM wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Top engineers were being poached from Google/FB and these people > were trying to carve out territory in a quickly growing engineering > team. It is always a bit sad when one of the top characteristic of an engineer from organization X is their political ability to carve out an empire. I'm a bit surprised she doesn't have at least one law firm trying to get her to be the lead claimant in a class action lawsuit. See…

I'm a bit surprised so many people want to give her advice. She's already taken a really bold step and written cogently and in a balanced way about her situation, the toxic culture at Uber, and made it clear she's moved on to a better place. Why talk about what she should be doing and hasn't done as if there is only one way to resolve this? Why not give thanks to the writer for writing this and putting up with all th…

> Why not talk about how wrong Uber was in every way and at every level - allowing a manager to attempt to proposition new direct reports for sex on their first day, not immediately firing them for this, trying to suppress this when taken to HR, rewarding the perpetrator, killing her career there for vague reasons, let alone all the other dysfunction she mentioned in passing?

Some of these things are actually violations of law in California, and the advice I would give Susan would be to pursue legal action.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#758

Post by knucklesandwich »

chimeracoder wrote: post #734
knucklesandwich wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, I assume you're talking about me (the person above expressing some skepticism about the 10x programmer thing). I'm actually open to be proven wrong, but I'm not sure that makes much of a difference in terms of how compensation is justified in the real world (again, ask your employer to provide justification for salaries if you think 10x programmers exist and they are paid as such). Whether or not I'm right, I'm o…

> The AMA for example, does not engage in collective bargaining with the management of a hospital and has no legal right to compel such a thing under the NLRA. The AMA does however lobby politicians and puts its people on medical boards to limit the supply of doctors. This is a common misconception. The AMA does not limit the supply of doctors. The AAMC (used to) limit the supply of doctors, but (a) they have been tr…

The AMA _did_ lobby (I should have clarified that they no longer do this) to restrict medicare funding for residency: http://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/01/us/doctors-assert-there-ar...

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/06/29/business/curbing-the-suppl...

At one point the AMA had about 75% of American doctors as members but has declined for various reasons (growth of specialty professional associations, change of employment in which many doctors have gone from private practices to hospitals which has accompanied a change in political objectives, etc.). The AMA probably does still serve as a professional association in the interest of some segment of doctors, but I take your point that it definitely don't work for doctors writ large. This is actually a good example of why professional associations can be inadequate, because they fundamentally are limited to advocacy for a profession instead of working for gains for a workplace.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#759

Post by deegles »

home_boi wrote: post #271
knucklesandwich wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech workers (across all disciplines) need to unionize to combat this kind of thing. As has been pointed out below, HR that is staffed and incentivized by the company management only serves the interests of the management. A union is the only structure that can actually win demands for workers by organizing workers to withhold their labor. It's not a panacea, and there are several historical examples of union leaders…

I'm of the opinion that the average software engineer in the USA is already overpaid and underworked with excellent benefits and low incentive to unionize. I'm simplifying it a bit but if you don't like your job, just grab a copy of Cracking the Coding Interview and apply to big companies. The big companies pay very well, have good benefits and interview everyone because of the need for a high head count

I think the average software engineer is underpaid relative to the value that they deliver to a company and the economy in general. Relative to other professions, sure. But I think that if a tech company makes enough to (in one instance) pay out dividends, they have spare cash to raise wages or provide bonuses to those that generated the value in the first place.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#760

Post by rodgerd »

luckydude wrote: post #232
bootload wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Culture was extremely heavy on the drinking;" For me this is a red flag. Booze + programming == pissed programming This leads to bad code also bad team dynamics. Ultimately this will reflect on the product and bottom line. For individuals this reads like a culture where the barrel is creating ^bad apples^. Not a good look on a resume.

Why is this getting down voted? Am I missing something in bootload's post? Seems pretty reasonable to me. Don't get me wrong, I like to drink, but drinking and programming don't mix well for me at least. I need my brain cells working, not partying, when I'm trying to write code. Maybe that's my age showing.

Because it's telling people something that might be true and makes them uncomfortable.
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