New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#751

Post by snowwolf » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 8:23 PM UTC

ericjang wrote: post #37

I dislike this post intensely. The opinion comes across as uncharitable, as the author probably has not used this Macbook Pro yet. How can you (alexeysemeney) be so sure? I consider myself a developer, and I almost never use the Fn and ESC keys on my Mac. Everybody uses the computer differently, but I'm pretty sure this is not a deal-breaker for most. One could also argue that the touch bar might lead to innovative d…

The ESC key should hardly be a deal breaker for Vim devs - most remap it to caps lock on a Mac because it's easier to reach.

The 13" model has a version that keeps that row anyway. And the Touch Bar does still have a function key row/view? with ESC. MacVim and iTerm could probably add the functionality that the whole row is an ESC key when they are the active apps.

For me though, Apple got it wrong by releasing a gimmick (touch bar) which may be useful for some groups of Pro users (designers/film editors?) but I can't see adding much value to what I think is their largest group - software developers.

For me my ideal developer laptop is small, light and powerful. So while it's great the Pro is now the same size and weight as the air (13" model), I think they could have gone even smaller - see the Dell XPS 13. A 13" full powered (i7, 16GB ram) in a 12" body (by having an edge to edge 'infinity' screen). Basically they should have released a MacBook that can run an i7 and 16GB ram.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#752

Post by JoshMnem » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 8:24 PM UTC

barleymash wrote: post #669

tmaly wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first thing that came to my mind was what will Vim users do without an escape key. When did you switch to the Caps Lock mapping? How long did it take you to get use to it?

I'm a vim user as well, and I'm actually shocked at how many users apparently still use the ESC key. I actually didn't know any regular vim users did that, because to me, it seems super inefficient. I don't say that as a put-down or anything like that. But if you use vim, I'd highly recommend remapping caps lock to Esc. I think you will get used to it within a day and will never go back.

I've tried ctrl-c, ctrl-[, and ESC. The one that stuck for me was ESC. The others usually don't work in other programs that use vim keybindings.

Many people already map capslock to ctrl. You could map ctrl to ESC, but then it gets uncomfortable when switching computers, and it goes against 10+ years of muscle memory.

I tried remapping capslock once, but it got too confusing when switching computers.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#753

Post by dpc_pw » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 8:25 PM UTC

Surprisingly for myself I'm going to write a comment defending Apple somewhat.

First specs - are we real tech people, or ignorant crowd? RAM is not only the amount of it. Previous MacBooks had 1066MHz memories, current one 1866MHz/2133MHz. And CPU power is not only the frequency. I have upgraded my desktop from 5 year old i7 to new i7. Both have similar frequencies and number of cores, but new one supports faster buses (like memory) and is in fact noticeably faster!

I am a big Vim/Neovim/Spacemacs user and I have CapsLock mapped to Esc. And you should do to, before you develop problems with your hands.

Now, would I buy new MacBook Pro? Hell no. I didn't back then, and I won't now. I'll keep my Linux box. And that touch bar is silly. But all these crying is so silly, and I think mostly motivated by trying to attract audience on your blogs and get some publicity.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#754

Post by JoshMnem » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 8:26 PM UTC

mst wrote: post #656

biot wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you talking about the same editor? From a 1996 vi man page [0]: There are commands that switch you into input mode. There is only one key that takes you out of input mode, and that is the key. (Key names are written using less-than and greater-than signs, e.g. means the ``escape'' key, usually labeled ``esc'' on your terminal's keyboard.) If you're ever confused as to which mode you're in, keep entering the key u…

Ctrl-[ == Esc. I'm a happy user of http://ex-vi.sf.net/ and can confirm that, since it's the exact same key code, it works -fine-.

That alternative doesn't work in many programs that use vim keybindings. Ctrl-c doesn't usually work as an alternative outside of vim either.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#755

Post by JoshMnem » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 8:28 PM UTC

eeeeeeeeeeeee wrote: post #740

falcolas wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The usual answer is 'C-[' or 'kj' (having added the appropriate line to your .vimrc).

Which is fine if you do everything locally (because you control that configuration), but not having escape really sucks when you are on servers a lot and you can't necessarily go changing vim settings around.

It's also difficult when using programs that emulate Vim's keybindings, because they tend to only use ESC by default.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#756

Post by falcolas » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 8:31 PM UTC

eeeeeeeeeeeee wrote: post #740

falcolas wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The usual answer is 'C-[' or 'kj' (having added the appropriate line to your .vimrc).

Which is fine if you do everything locally (because you control that configuration), but not having escape really sucks when you are on servers a lot and you can't necessarily go changing vim settings around.

C-[ is available by default; it's the actual control sequence sent by escape in many terminals.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#757

Post by jbmorgado » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 8:44 PM UTC

copperx wrote: post #373

jbmorgado wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, he goes trough more than the bar. I have a 2013 15" MacBook Pro, the diference with the top of the line that came out yesterday comes down a slight bump in the dedicated Graphics Card (which I don't appreciate since I use CUDA a lot and as such I actually prefer the GTX 750M to a only slightly better AMD card in the new model), and a 0.1 GHz bump in the processor (back from the 2.3 GHz i7 my MacBook Pro has). I…

> ask for the same price can be something positive. Didn't they bump up the base price?

They did, but this is the top of the line option. The price for that one remained the same.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#758

Post by jbmorgado » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 8:46 PM UTC

trapperkeeper79 wrote: post #343

jbmorgado wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, he goes trough more than the bar. I have a 2013 15" MacBook Pro, the diference with the top of the line that came out yesterday comes down a slight bump in the dedicated Graphics Card (which I don't appreciate since I use CUDA a lot and as such I actually prefer the GTX 750M to a only slightly better AMD card in the new model), and a 0.1 GHz bump in the processor (back from the 2.3 GHz i7 my MacBook Pro has). I…

I'm surprised why more devs are not getting upset at the lack of an Nvidia GPU option.

About devs I'm not sure, but I use it a lot at work for simulations (optimised for CUDA) and some Deep Learning and the Nvidia card is a must.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#759

Post by ghostly_s » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 9:00 PM UTC

ag_47 wrote: post #339

ericjang wrote: post #37

I dislike this post intensely. The opinion comes across as uncharitable, as the author probably has not used this Macbook Pro yet. How can you (alexeysemeney) be so sure? I consider myself a developer, and I almost never use the Fn and ESC keys on my Mac. Everybody uses the computer differently, but I'm pretty sure this is not a deal-breaker for most. One could also argue that the touch bar might lead to innovative d…

hmm, looking at the comments -- am I the only who uses Fn + Arrow Keys for Page Up/Down and Home/End purposes? How can you not?

You're describing the 'Fn' mod-key. Everyone else here is describing the F-keys. The 'Fn' key is still there and does what it always did. In fact, it calls up the traditional 'Fn' keys on the touchbar, functionally just the same as the old MBPs, making all this whining look particularly stupid.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#760

Post by bitwize » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 9:11 PM UTC

Skunkleton wrote: post #20

bitwize wrote: post #3

So use an editor that supports a modern UI, like Sublime Text or Atom, and not something originally designed for an ADM-3A terminal.

I'm sorry, what constitutes a modern UI? And what do ST or Atom do that hasn't existed for decades in one form or another?

Conformance with Apple's UI standards, or at least something resembling them.

Escape and f-keys are used to send commands to the computer, not to enter text. Apple feels that this is better achieved with touch, gestures, and the mouse, so they've removed the temptation for developers to fall into old bad habits. See also: the removal of arrow keys on the original Mac.