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A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

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Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#751
post #719

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, may be not quite 10X. It's 1+.9+.81+.72+... which ends up about 9.4X. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking#/me... Fractional reserve plus debt do create money. The accounting cancels out on the book but there are money circulating in the system. If accounting balanced to 0 means no money is created, then FOMC buying and selling treasury creates no money at all since it's net zero on the bo…

> If accounting balanced to 0 means no money is created Accounting does balance to zero. Debt and money are added, and they sum to zero. Proof: Let bank start at 0 (or pick any value). Bank receives X dollars from entity A. Now bank has X dollars in reserves and owes entity A exactly X dollars, so net position of bank is zero (X dollars in reserves - X dollars owed = 0). A started with X, gave it to the bank, and the…

Accounting does balance to zero. That doesn't negate the fact that money has been created in the system.

Let me pose the question again. Your statement is since accounting balanced to 0, no money has been created. In that case, FOMC's account balance is also net zero when buying treasury or selling treasury. Therefore FOMC doesn't create or destroy money. So what is the purpose of FOMC again?

Edit: Instead of arguing with me, look up Money creation by the commercial banks in the wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#752

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool idea. I'd advocate for an age of 25 though. An 18 year old these days is still a child. Give them a couple years into the drinking age to get their bad decisions out of the way.

Many adults make bad decisions their whole lives.

Probably one of the biggest mistakes is not learning more skills and different skills. In this era of online learning, there is really no excuse for not spending a couple hours bere and there to learn something new or different.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basic income is a conservative proposal Uh, what? In general conservatives consider basic income as welfare/wealth redistribution and hate the very notion of it. Just because some of your conservative relatives like it doesn't make it a conservative thing, it's very much a liberal policy, not a conservative one.

The Conservative Case for a Guaranteed Basic Income http://theatln.tc/1yydmC9 "The idea isn’t new. As Frum notes, Friederich Hayek endorsed it. In 1962, the libertarian economist Milton Friedman advocated a minimum guaranteed income via a “negative income tax.” In 1967, Martin Luther King Jr. said, “The solution to poverty is to abolish it directly by a now widely discussed measure: the guaranteed income.” Richard Ni…

Just because a prominent conservative supported the idea doesn't make it a conservative ideal. If you were to poll conservatives on the idea of basic income you will not find wide support for it, you'll hear it called welfare and income redistribution. What the conservative party is now bears little resemblance to what it was in the 60's and a negative income tax is not the same thing as a basic income anyway. You've confused support for an idea among intellectuals for support for the idea of the party. The conservative party in no way supports the notion of a basic income, it is opposed to their very core of what the party is today.

Lincoln for example was a republican, but by today's standards he's a liberal. Basic income is a liberal policy in today's world, not a conservative one by any means. It is very much a liberal policy.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#754
This concept would simply create inflation.

Image everyone has $10 on island A. Island B sells coconuts and the going rate for a coconut is $1. Based on other bills the islanders need to pay for, $1 fits the average budget and is what people are willing to pay for coconuts.

Now make everyone on island A have $100. The demand for coconuts rises but people on island B soon realize they can make more money by raising prices even though they sell less units. They eventually increase the price of coconuts to $10 because that ends up being the price point at which the Island B people are making the most money.

Therefore by increasing the income of everyone by a factor of 10, you end up increase the prices by a factor of 10. There is some lag time where prices will balance out though, so if you just kept doing this every month you might have a period of faux prosperity but you would also be creating runaway inflation.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#755

This concept would simply create inflation. Image everyone has $10 on island A. Island B sells coconuts and the going rate for a coconut is $1. Based on other bills the islanders need to pay for, $1 fits the average budget and is what people are willing to pay for coconuts. Now make everyone on island A have $100. The demand for coconuts rises but people on island B soon realize they can make more money by raising pr…

We would not be increasing everyone's income by the same factor. People with less money would see their income rise by a larger factor than people with more money. Thus, for example, if you have $0 pre-BI and $X post-BI, with X > 0, there's no amount of inflation that will cancel out the fact that you've benefited.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#756
post #99

This article says it's talking about a universal basic income, and makes the usual point that a completely universal, no-strings-attached income is simple to administer, doesn't have poverty traps, etc. And then, towards the end where it starts looking at numbers, it starts saying things like > But by excluding 45 million retirees who already receive a basic income through Social Security, the cost falls to $2.7 tril…

Just reduce the amount. Start with any no-strings-attached amount and climb from there.

As soon as you give people as little as 100$/month you will see some people tweeting about all the tricks they found to make it enough. Of course it wont be enough to bring most from poverty and those who can live off that will often start off some possessions, but the goal is to lower the bar of entry into that situation.

Only under these conditions can we transition from the bullshit-job economy we have and make sure that the general automation of production will benefit most instead of a few.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#757
Entrenching authoritarianism should NOT be the next big thing.

Compulsory basic income requires throwing people who refuse to hand over currency they receive in private trade in prison, where they are kept in small enclosures, and often develop mental illness, and suffer physical and sexual abuse. Techies should not support such a dark, authoritarian vision for the future.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#758

I will say that if the US ever got a basic income, I wouldn't have a reason to kill myself anymore.

Living on money taken by force from others is an easy solution, but it is not an ethical one. If you feel like you have a reason to kill yourself, you need to find someone to talk to about this, not look to the government, and the fruits of its authority, for your salvation. It's not lack of resources that makes someone suicidal. It's a deficiency in your ability to address the challenges you face in your life.

Again: the solution is to talk to someone. There are many who go through what you do, and there are many people out there who can help. You're not alone.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#759
post #617

I make more than $100,000 a year, but I'd gladly quit if I had a basic income that let me lay around at home all day and read library books.

And you would be replaced by someone who likes to travel to tropical beaches to sit and read books all day :)

It would reduce the supply of highly skill labour, which would reduce the amount of goods/services produced, and as a consequence, the amount of wealth the world gets to consume. You're making the 'lump of labour fallacy' in assuming that someone will just take his stop with no loss.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Redesigning the tax structure to favour millionaires ( massive net beneficiaries because their US consumption expenditure is usually a tiny fraction of their capital gains tax and/or income tax bills) This hasn't been true in decades. The people ("millionaires") who make ~150K/year pretty much spend all of it. It's the multi-millionaires and billionaires who make millions a year and don't spend that much, but those…

> And getting rid of capital gains tax would increase economic efficiency because it currently prevents people from selling shares in order to buy better shares unless the advantage of the new shares can overcome the taxes due from selling the existing ones. Getting rid of capital gains tax to encourage reinvestment is kind of silly. Heck, you could tax capital gains as regular income, and still eliminate any drag on…

> Heck, you could tax capital gains as regular income, and still eliminate any drag on reinvestment by allowing deductions for investment so long as the investments for which such deductions were taken were treated as having a zero basis value.

Which is a de facto consumption tax because it means you only pay tax when you sell securities without buying other securities, which you only do when you want to spend the money.

> Not really. You just structure the transactions to avoid what is taxable, e.g., you buy the yacht at a low nominal price and simultaneously (and completely coincidentally) by some financial investment not subject to consumption tax from the same party at an inflated price.

As opposed to the current system where you work for somebody for a low nominal wage and simultaneously (and completely coincidentally) they "sell" you a car for one dollar. Which in either case will get you prosecuted for tax fraud.

> Anyone who can avoid paying taxes on their income in an income tax system can avoid paying taxes on it in a consumption tax system. (If you have an "unconditionally tax every transfer of money between two parties" system, it gets harder, but that has all kinds of downsides.)

This is not actually that hard. You make the amount of the consumption tax based on the market value of the purchased item rather than the amount you nominally paid for it, with a presumption that the amount you paid is the market value, which the IRS can easily rebut when you're claiming the market value of a yacht is $20.

> Sure, if you only ever sell shares that have lost value, you can avoid paying the (low) capital gains tax, at the expense of always losing money.

It's not actually losing money. You invest in a diverse portfolio of stocks, some go up, some go down, some stay the same. When you want to spend some money you sell the stocks that have underperformed rather than the stocks that have performed well, which (at the risk of selling low) is plausibly what you want to do anyway, and then you pay no taxes because you realized no gains.

Even if all your stocks went up and by the same amount, if you want to spend 1% of the total assets then you still only pay tax on 1% of the gains because the rest of the gains are still unrealized. So it's already effectively a consumption tax as long as you can avoid changing what you're invested in.

Except that it's a consumption tax that taxes only the spending of interest (and earned income) but not principal, which seems to be to the benefit of people with more wealth.

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