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Online age verification is the hill to die on

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Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They can spend time learning how to critically analyze text or how to learn choreography for a musical. But to what end? There is zero value to many of these kids in learning to do these things. Again, we're pulling from a playbook on how to live a successful life that is decades out of date. A kid who has a potentially successful side hustle should be encouraged to follow it. And besides, we're only talking about…

There is a lot of value, it's just that children are very bad at estimating value. That's why they'd rather spend all their time eating candy and going to the skate park - they're children. Apparently some adults see it that way, too, which is shocking to me. Again, kids do not need to speedrun being cogs in the machines. Could SOME of them hypothetically become millionaires like 5 years earlier? I mean... I guess? B…

>Again, kids do not need to speedrun being cogs in the machines. Could SOME of them hypothetically become millionaires like 5 years earlier?

It's not about speedrunning being cogs in the machine, its about finding their place in a world where nothing is guaranteed and there is no longer a "golden path" to a happy middle class life. Forcing everyone down the golden path that is guaranteed to not work for some sizeable percentage of kids is moral disaster. But it makes some of us adults feel good, so we encourage it regardless of the outcome.

>The reality is 99.9999% of people are destined for the same thing: a normal career, with a normal salary.

Of course. My argument is not that some small number of people will miss out on being millionaires. The argument is that parents don't know what the future looks like, yet they insist on forcing their children down paths that resemble their own success stories regardless of how much society has changed in the intervening decades. It's asinine.

>Sure. For the majority of people, education leads to higher lifetime income, and it's not even close. We have the statistics on this. We don't know ahead of time which one someone will be. So, we should optimize for the best odds.

It is exactly this thinking that has so utterly distorted the education market that it's now mostly worthless as a signal. Yes, high school education correlates with some amount of success. College education correlates with a lot more success. But it's not about having the piece of paper, it's about what the piece of paper signals about the person. But degrees now have little value as such signals because we've engineered society so that far more people go to college and get a degree, or graduate high school than are suited to it. To accomplish this we've had to dumb down both college and high school. We've created an education arms race where we need increasing years of education just to signal the same quality that many fewer years signaled in the past. We've done large scale damage to students and society with the kind of thinking you're exhibiting here.

>What actually doesn't get enough mention are the people who are forced into lifetime poverty because they never graduated high school and are therefore essentially unemployable.

Are they unemployable because they didn't graduate high school, or are they unemployable because they don't have the traits of someone who graduated high school? What's stopping them from getting a GED? The high school degree has little causal relevance here.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because "making everyone identifiable" isn't an explicit design goal. Rather it is merely an implicit imperative (of Facebook et al, who are pushing these laws) that casts its shadow over the design. That shadow is what results in a design based around sending identifying information from the client to the server. Once this dynamic is normalized, servers will demand ever-more identifying information and evidence that…

The California law makes it illegal for Facebook to demand anything more than just your age. That seems like the opposite of what they want.

As you've stated it, sure, for now. The point is that the dynamic is being set - the number of information-leaking security vulnerabilities in browsers should be headed downwards, not being increased with legislation.

But also, does the California law actually prohibit Faceboot from locking your account and requesting "extra documentation" including government IDs and whatnot? That would be news in its own right.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#744
post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who's sending them? Your bank, like they have 2FA for every other access to your account. 2FA also doesn't need to be via SMS, and even when it is that's dirt cheap. Rate limits can be a couple of approvals per hour with daily limits of a small handful. Or a leaky-bucket style algortihm where you can do a few at a time, but you only get one more per hour. Whatever way it's done it precludes your large-scale automat…

So the government would stop you from accessing more than two porn sites per hour and five porn sites per day?

Your bank would likely have a limit on the number of approvals it would issue over time, to stop automated exploits, sure. In theory you only need these approvals once per site on signup.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#745

In the age of AI I think it’s only necessary and inevitable to implement some of kind of internet ID system to stop the massive onslaught of AI generated fraud, malicious hacking, and spam. If age verification is a Trojan horse to erase online anonymity, so be it, I see that as a worthy goal. Humans are inherently social, and social networks are based on trust. Trust is primarily a function of reputation, peer pressu…

This reads like satire. Keep children off the internet, at the very least the open part.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#746
post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason is that this whole push for age verification is nothing to do with actually stopping kids seeing the content. If it was then this kind of solution would be being legislated for. It’s just about making everyone identifiable.

> The reason is that this whole push for age verification is nothing to do with actually stopping kids seeing the content. The reason that mainstream politicians are pushing is because the public wants something done to protect their kids. Are there likely to be bad actors pushing for it for nefarious reasons as well ? Sure. Are the 'solutions' inadequate and often tech- and privacy-illiterate? Absolutely. Is the ent…

The public largely wants whatever the media tells them to want and the media in turn tells people to want whatever the same bad actors want them to want.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#747
post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The public, and consumers in general often state a want or need for something that they don't actually want or that would harm their quality of life, it is correct to demean or deride these wants when they're identified, some aspects of human nature are amusing. But there is a global conspiracy, a synchronised effort among western leaders to implement near identical solutions to this engineered "problem", the respons…

>The public, and consumers in general often state a want or need for something that they don't actually want or that would harm their quality of life, it is correct to demean or deride these wants when they're identified, some aspects of human nature are amusing. Thank you for proving my point by doing the exact thing I said tech people do. Do you think that if you demean and deride enough people, the problem will go…

>human nature

>the problem will go away?

...

It's more worrying to me that you think you can fix us.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#748
post #216
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in the late 90s or so, there was a proposal to have sites voluntarily set an age header, so parents/employers/etc could use to block the site if they wish. People said it would never work, because adult sites had a financial incentive not to opt in to reduce their own traffic.

People were wrong. We pay money online mostly through credit cards. Credit card transactions can be reversed. If children spend money on porn, those payments are likely to be reversed. This is really bad for the ability of the porn sites to continue receiving credit card payments, and continue making money. An age header is a trivial step that can reduce the odds of the adult site receiving payments that later get re…

Many porn sites are ad-funded so don't have a any credit-card based motivations.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#749
post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the government would stop you from accessing more than two porn sites per hour and five porn sites per day?

Your bank would likely have a limit on the number of approvals it would issue over time, to stop automated exploits, sure. In theory you only need these approvals once per site on signup.

So my bank would stop me from signing up for more than five porn sites per day?

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#750
post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your bank would likely have a limit on the number of approvals it would issue over time, to stop automated exploits, sure. In theory you only need these approvals once per site on signup.

So my bank would stop me from signing up for more than five porn sites per day?

Maybe? Is that insanely unreasonable?

We are pre-supposing for the sake of this thread that proving you are over 18 is desirable, but that giving your ID to unknown third parties is not.

That being the case, having a rate-limit on site approvals would appear to be a relatively reasonable tradeoff to stop the system being exploited for gain by third parties like the commenter upthread.

If you don't want any of that in the first place, cool, but I'm not making an argument for it here, just saying that a system that meets these two requirements is possible.

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