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The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

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741–750 of 1001 posts

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#741

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

As somebody who is entirely for restrictions on internet / social media, I think you're missing the bigger picture here. First, you assume that parents have the technical knowhow to restrict their kids from specific sites. My parents used a lot of different tools when I was a kid, but between figuring out passwords, putting my fingerprint onto my mom's phone, and spoofing mac addresses, I always found a way around the restrictions so I could stay up later.

But let's assume the majority of parents can actually do this. The problem with social media is not an individual one! We've fallen into a Nash Equilibrium, a game theory trap where we all defect and use our phones. If you don't have a phone or social media nowadays you will have much more trouble socializing than those who do, even though everyone would be better off if nobody used phones. As a teenager, you don't want to be the only one without a phone or social media. And so I truly do think the only solution is with higher level coordination.

Now, it's possible that the government isn't the right organization to enforce this coordination. Unfortunately, we don't really have any other forms of community that work for this. People already get mad at HOA's for making them trim their lawn; imagine an HOA for blocking social media! I do think the idea of a community doing this would be great though, assuming (obviously) that it was easy to move on and out of, as well as local. This would also help adults!

So to be honest, I don't think parents have the individual power to fix this, even with their kids.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#742

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

> We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. The mistake in this reasoning is assuming that they are actually interested in protecting the children.

GP isn't interested in protecting children either. Punishing parents harder does nothing to improve the lives of children — in fact it makes them much worse, because now they are addicted to Facebook and their parents are in jail. It just makes certain people feel morally righteous that someone got punished.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a parent blocking websights is a joy, maybe the rule should be to allow guardians more ability to control that. Trying to block some services is not trivial As a human, I'd love to see the rest of you fools quit that. If HN ever starts to algorithm me I'll be gone too.

And as a bonus you can block your boomer parent's access to cnn and msnbc (or whatever its called now) and perhaps fox. It will make Thankgiving a lot more pleasant for all. PS Mom, I don't know why cnn doesn't work anymore. ;)

I'm not Americans but isn't Fox the worst one out of those?

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#744
Age verification is age discrimination.

Some can be 50 and still be clueless who to trust and what to do.

Every kind of discrimination merely shifts the burden.

And thinking of the children as an excuse for draconian law is itself child abuse. It's using children as a shield to take cover.

EDIT: I'd like to add that if age verification becomes a thing, we should also have an online drug test, insurance verification, financial wellbeing tests, mental health checks and a badge of dishonor for anyone who fails to comply.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#745
post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very easy to lock up alcohol/cigarettes, a child should never have access. Internet usage is more like broadcast media, a child should have regular access. The positives and negatives of Internet usage are more extreme than broadcast media but less than alcohol/guns. The majority of people lack the skills to properly censor Internet without hovering over the child's shoulder full-time as you would with a gun. Be…

Devices such as phones come with an option when you start the device asking simply is this for a child or an adult. Your router generally these days comes with a parental filter option on start up too. Heck we have chatgpt that can guide a parent through setting up a system if they want something more custom. If people want to push, they should just push to make these set up options more ubiquitous, obvious and stand…

Router parental filters are accountability sinks. They don't actually work, and they can't because we spent the last 20 years redesigning network protocols to prevent middle boxes from tampering with connections.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attestation from government sounds like the ideal solution. This could actually provide _more_ privacy because we can begin using attestation for things we currently use IDs for such as “Has the privilege of driving a car” or “Can purchase alcohol”

Amazing how fast these systems go from "zero knowledge" to "route the request through the government system every time you use your ID"

Except it wouldn't need to be every request. Just the first one.

All these services have accounts, and the only time you need to do an age check is when the account is created.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Screw over Meta then. Not everybody else . Meta is the bozo in a panel van with no windows. All The legit porn sites put up Big Blinking Neon Signs.

I actually run an adults only community site and you are correct, I have it in a popup that appears on every "fresh" visit to the site, it's in the giant bold print you agree to when you register, and from a technical end, I send every possible header and other signal to let filtering software know it's an adult only space. If there is a child accessing that site, they are doing so because their parent didn't even at…

Can't you just get people to email you an ID photo when they sign up?

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#748
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> holding parents accountable for what their children consume There is a local dive bar down the street. I haven't expressly told my kids that entering and ordering an alcoholic drink is forbidden. In fact, that place has a hamburger stand out front on weekends and I wouldn't discourage my kids from trying it out if they were out exploring. I still expect that the bartender would check their ID before pulling a pint…

also there's a huge argument to be made that surveilling your kids is really really bad for their development

Yes, my spouse and I were very conscious of this. My kids are now at an age where some of the just-in-case tracking chafes and they ditch trackers and turn off location on their watch. Its a normal renegotiation that occurs as they pass through various maturity thresholds. The older of them has thusfar rejected phones and watches and uses Omarchy on an old Thinkpad.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#749
post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU's planned system requires highly invasive age verification EUDI wallets are connected to your government issued ID. There is no "highly invasive age verification". We are literally sending a request to our government's server to sign, with their private key, message "this john smith born on 1970-01-01 is aged over 18" + jwt iat. There are 3 claims in there. They are hashed with different salts. This all is signe…

> We are literally sending a request to our government's server to sign, with their private key, message "this john smith born on 1970-01-01 is aged over 18" + jwt iat. There are 3 claims in there. They are hashed with different salts. This all is signed by the government. If the "18+ claim" can't be linked to your identity and doesn't have any rate limits, someone can set up a token-as-a-service to sell tokens on th…

> someone can set up a token-as-a-service to sell tokens on the black market

They can! Singing requires either PIN or finger on the fingerprint, and signed "proof" is valid for like 60 seconds. This whole end-to-end attestation with play integrity is supposed to make setting up token-as-a-service things impractical.

> What's going to stop the government from keeping all the salts they're issuing and then mandating that site operators add the salts to their existing logs?

> How does the math say no

BBS+ signatures. Hashes you receive from the government and hashes you send to the site operator are different and not correlated.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#750
post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It derives an age attribute such as "over 18" from a passport or ID, without disclosing any other information such as the date of birth. How? If it’s analyzes my ID 100% client side I can fake any info I want. If my ID goes to a server, it’s compromised IMO. I think the zero proof systems being touted are like ephemeral messaging in Snapchat. That is, we’re being sold something that’s impossible and it only “works”…

> If it’s analyzes my ID 100% client side I can fake any info I want. If my ID goes to a server, amplifying your point, there is effectively no way for the layperson to make this distinction. And because the app needs to send data over an encrypted channel, it would be difficult at best for a sophisticated person to determine whether their info is being sent over the wire.

> And because the app needs to send data over an encrypted channel, it would be difficult at best for a sophisticated person to determine whether their info is being sent over the wire.

Devices are built from the ground up to prevent even sophisticated users from tapping them to verify we aren't being lied to. The average person thinks that "hackers" will mobilize if things get too bad and they're completely wrong.

Tamper proof, encrypted chains of trust start from the second a device gets power and it's infecting everything from appliances to phones to computers. Get ready for a future where your rented toaster has parts serialization that can't be bypassed.

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