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Keep Android Open

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Re: Keep Android Open

#741
I'm not a developer, but happened to see the banner when downloading an app from F-Droid and looked into the issue a bit.

Discussed it with the AI chatbot Claude.

And sort of ran two trials.

First, just discussed with Claude based on the read I got from KeepAndroidOpen.

For that first one, it was just kind of ad hoc, and just discussed it freely, asking questions, getting responses, etc.

But then I wanted to see if Claude might respond differently if different sources were provided.

So as each new conversation is different, could start a new conversation, and included three sources. One being what Google has at developer.android.com at developer-verification. Second being a MSN story titled "Google Claims Android App Sideloading Won't Die, But Change". Third being a story at The Register with the title "'Keep Android Open' movement fights back against Google sideloading restrictions".

Did the best I could to make the prompt balanced and informed, and basically just asked Claude what it thought of the overall situation.

In both cases though, it seems that Claude is raising the question of whether security is a bit of a cover story to the objective of consolidation and control.

For the first run I asked it about what Prud'hommeaux who created KeepAndroidOpen said as quoted in The Register article:

""I'd say it's conceivably possible that there is some glimmer of merit," Prud'hommeaux told The Register when asked about Google's security claims. "A more convincing explanation, of course, is that they feel like they have enough of a lock on the ecosystem that they can assert complete control over every application that's distributed in the world to Android-certified devices, which is more than 95 percent of devices outside of China.""

and it responded with:

"The strongest version of Prud'hommeaux's argument isn't really that Google is lying about security. It's that security is the cover story that makes a control-consolidation move publicly defensible, and that Google has structured the policy in a way that maximally serves control even where that comes at the expense of actual security (like doing nothing about Play Store malware). That reads as pretty plausible to me."

Though Claude did say the corporate motivation is rarely entirely one sided:

"That said, I'd push back slightly on the idea that it's purely cynical. Corporate motivations are rarely that clean. Google probably has genuine internal anxiety about Android's malware reputation — it's bad for the brand, it creates regulatory exposure, and it gives critics ammunition. So the security rationale is probably sincerely held by at least some people inside Google, even if the effect of the policy has more to do with control than protection. The two motivations — tightening control and improving security optics — are so conveniently aligned here that it would be almost impossible to disentangle them, even in good faith."

And then for the second run it said something similar:

"My overall read is that this feels like a policy where the stated reason (security) and the structural effect (consolidating control) are both real, but the latter should be scrutinized more carefully than Google's framing invites. The backlash is justified in flagging the antitrust and openness dimensions — those concerns deserve regulatory attention regardless of whether one accepts Google's security logic. But I wouldn't call it a straightforward "power grab" with no legitimate basis either. It's more like a policy with genuine security merit that happens to also serve Google's competitive interests rather conveniently."

And also said in the second run:

"That said, the critics raise concerns I find substantive. The most compelling to me isn't really about hobbyists or the $25 fee — it's the structural power question. Google would essentially become the arbiter of who gets to distribute software on Android-certified devices, which covers the vast majority of Android hardware globally. That's an enormous gatekeeping role for a company that also runs the dominant app store and competes commercially with alternative distribution platforms like F-Droid. Even if Google's stated intentions are entirely benign, concentrating that much control in a single private company creates obvious long-term risks for competition and openness — risks that are harder to undo once established."

It's interesting though. I said to Claude that the thought crossed my mind that I could include what it said in a message to regulators, but on the other hand, what Claude or any other AI chatbot says to a single user in a single conversation isn't in any way a kind of broader public stance that an AI is taking on an issue. And so Claude agreed with that.

"You've identified the real issue precisely. The problem with quoting me isn't really about weight or credibility — it's about the nature of what I produce. When you quote Prud'hommeaux, you're quoting a person who holds that view, will defend it if challenged, has staked his reputation on it, and can be contacted for clarification. When you quote me, you're quoting something more like a well-reasoned response that was generated for your particular conversation, that I won't remember having said, that I might phrase differently in another conversation, and that I can't be held to as a public position."

But then suggested that I could just summarize what it had said, and could just express it in my own words.

But there is a big difference. Claude knows a lot more about a lot more stuff than I do. So, the fact that Claude said it, even if it's just in one conversation with one user is rather a different thing than if I said it.

So those have been a few of my thoughts.

Sorry, if this is way too long. :-)

Re: Keep Android Open

#742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are mistaken. Just like neither Windows nor MacOS have really solved the desktop app sandboxing story, so neither has Linux. Because, as I said in a sibling comment and cosmic_cheese notes further below, this requires rethinking the usage model altogether: files and folders, and even file types, don't work anymore. If an app needs to access any related files, it basically needs access to my entire $HOME,…

I don't fully agree with cosmic_cheese's comment. If we take music as an example, you could put your music in a Music folder and open that folder using your music player/manager and that folder gets added to your sandbox. This is how macOS sandboxing works and it works fine. Moreover, you can protect certain directories by default, even for unsandboxed apps, as e.g. macOS does, where a random app that is not sandboxe…

You get exactly that with snaps/flatpaks which are not given access to your $HOME.

But even with your example, you might need access to cover art from your graphics editing app, and very quickly you get to the same state. How about lyrics file from your text editor or a dedicated one? And wait, I'd like to mix in some music into Audacity too. File portals are actually a decent solution there, but they only work for files with supported software.

Yes, you can adapt your workflow, but it's going to be adapting and you will lose some things you might love in your workflow.

Re: Keep Android Open

#743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> demanding someone make their software exactly how you desire IMO the way this should work is that Google can make their software however they want provided they don't do anything to stop me from changing it to work the way I want. Unfortunately, they've already done a lot of things to stop me from changing it to work the way I want. SafetyNet, locked bootloaders, closed-source system apps, and now they're (maybe) t…

> IMO the way this should work is that Google can make their software however they want provided they don't do anything to stop me from changing it to work the way I want. That's exactly how it is. You're free to get your soldering iron out, or your debugger and reverse engineer anything you want. I don't mean to argue unfairly, but all we're talking about here is the relative ease with which you can do what you want…

I don't necessarily think they should have to design anything to make it easier, just not actively design things to make it harder.

Re: Keep Android Open

#744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> shape a dedicated account type for students and hobbyists. Even that is a step too far in the wrong direction. Doesn't matter if it's free, or whatever, simply requiring an account at all to create and run software on your own device (or make it available to others) is wrong. There exists no freedom when you are required to verify your identity, or even just provide any personal information whatsoever, to a company…

The problem with this mentality is that you're not proposing a solution that solves the problem Google and Apple are trying to solve (or are at least stating they are). Rather than just vent about ideals, showing up to the table and listening to the requirements of all stakeholders (even if they differ from yours) will lead to a more productive result. I would not listen to your concerns if you didn't listen to mine.

There is no problem to solve, though.

“Sideloading” is disabled by default on all new android devices. You have to go through deliberate steps to enable installation from outside sources.

End users are ultimately responsible or their own devices and choosing what software to run and not run. That some people can get scammed by someone on the phone walking them through how to enable sideloading, and telling them to ignore all the warnings that currently pop up, is not a problem that Google, Apple, etc. need to solve. It is already solved, via the disabled by default setting and all of the warnings.

We don’t need further restrictions on creation and distribution of software. We need end users to step up and educate themselves on how to use and operate technology safely.

Re: Keep Android Open

#745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMO the way this should work is that Google can make their software however they want provided they don't do anything to stop me from changing it to work the way I want. That's exactly how it is. You're free to get your soldering iron out, or your debugger and reverse engineer anything you want. I don't mean to argue unfairly, but all we're talking about here is the relative ease with which you can do what you want…

I don't necessarily think they should have to design anything to make it easier, just not actively design things to make it harder.

Though actually... I've recently become more sympathetic to the idea that software developers should be forced to take active steps to make software they distribute easy for users to modify, because software is both essential to modern life, and uniquely able to act against consumer interests in a way that's almost completely unprecedented for other goods in all human history.

A couple decades ago it would have been impractical if not impossible to make a TV, sell it to a bunch of people, and then remotely update it a few years later to start showing unkippable manufacturer-installed video ads every time you power it on. Or create a car that requires you to pay money to the manufacturer every month in order to use the seat heaters. Or build a tractor that detects if you repair it using parts not made by a specific manufacturer and shuts itself off if you do.

But now, in the age of software, all of these abuses are not only feasible to implement, but easy. And it all comes down to the fact that the software that controls these devices cannot be easily modified by the user who purchased them, or by anyone other than the company that originally manufactured them. It's a local monopoly. Were software developers required to distribute the source and build tools along with the compiled code, I suspect a vibrant modding community would spring up around any product of sufficient popularity which would make such abuses much more difficult to get away with. (Why pay a monthly subscription for my seat heaters when I can just buy a $5 software mod that permanently enables them? And why bother developing such an anti-feature in the first place if you know users will easily bypass it?)

Re: Keep Android Open

#746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If 80% of adults worldwide somehow became unable to tolerate the slightest inconvenience, then yes, I'd say they would be morons, but I doubt they are. I'm unsure where you're getting the 80% statistic from.

I used that little convenience of my smart phone and used the internet. https://www.demandsage.com/smartphone-usage-statistics/ I am sure you are thinking I’m a “moron” because I didn’t drive to the library and use microfiche to find the information… Or maybe you would have been okay if I used Veronica and searched Gopher sites like I did pre Web in the 90s?

[dead]

Re: Keep Android Open

#747
post #736
post #733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some things were always wrong. Since day 1. And since day 1 there were people (e.g. me) who constantly told the others. But got ignored. No, enshittification is not new. It was obvious from day 1 that it will eventually happen. To everybody who know basic mechanisms of how human beings interact with each other. Sometimes people come to me and say "yeah, well, it's about technology, that's not my business, and I don't…

This is cynicism or worse, the way to get more open hardware and software, is to buy it and use it, regulation and understanding will catch up. Sure people care more about things other than tech, that's never stopped me from pointing out how tech should work and advocating for it. I've used Linux for 25 years, and never have I thought it has enshittified. It's only Android in the last decade that has, much like the i…

Yes, Linux has not been enshittified in all these 25 years. I can confirm. I cannot even confirm that for the entire FOSS scene, though, where it is common sense nowadays to depend on Github and Discord, maybe also Youtube, Facebook, etc. But yeah, that's another story...

Re: Keep Android Open

#748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I welcome feature stagnation on mobile! Every single release is a step backwards. Android 15 cannot hold a candle to what cynogenmod did on top of android 2.3. And that's objective.

Historical meaning is pretty worthless though. It's like saying CPU's are going backwards because the 386 was a bigger jump. Technology matures eventually and that's not a bad thing.

no my friend. i mean objectively, not some rose tinted nostalgia glasses. android2.3 allowed so much better control for people who are not installing all sort of crap apps, that the usability was something unimaginable to an android15 user. not to mention we had devices with trackballs, keyboards etc

sadly, given that both manufacturers on this duopoly are highly incentivised to push malicious apps, everything must be throw out for a cat and mouse game of sand boxing

Re: Keep Android Open

#749
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I welcome feature stagnation on mobile! Every single release is a step backwards. Android 15 cannot hold a candle to what cynogenmod did on top of android 2.3. And that's objective.

> And that's objective. I don't think you understand what that word means. Regardless, your opinion (and mine) is irrelevant. People want at least some of the features of modern android, and any alternative lacking those is not going to be adopted by most people. Just look at how many people try GrapheneOS and find the minor things to be dealbreakers for them. And as long as that's the case you can't expect people to…

Name one feature android have today that was missing from comunity rom built on top of android 2.3. only sandox kerbel featurea, but that's a circular argument.

Only things nobody wanted were missing then. Like fake AI photo enhancement.

Re: Keep Android Open

#750
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several that plug into Safari, and Pihole just works. Does Android have ad blockers that do more? It's been a few years since I switched.

Blokada, Rethink, and Adguard just to name a few. Also, the DNS can be set to NextDNS, both via the system settings _and_ the aforementioned apps.

All of those are vpn/dns hacks. The ios cope is unbelievable.
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