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The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

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Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We haven't been able to decode what whales and dolphins are communicating. Are they using language? A problem SETI faces is whether we would be able to decode an alien signal. They may be too different in their biology, culture and technology. The book & movie Contact propose that math is a universal language. This assumes they're motivated to use the same basic mathematical structures we do. Maybe they don't care ab…

The whole "math is a universal" language is particularly laughable to me considering it is a formal system and the universe is observably irregular. As I am wont to say: regularity is only ever achieved at the price of generality.

Think about what math is trying to formalize

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#742
In some realpolitik/moral sense, does it matter whether it is actually "thinking", or "conscious", or has "autonomy" / "agency" of its own?

What seems to matter more is if enough people believe that Claude has those things.

If people credibly think AI may have those qualities, it behooves them to treat the AI like any other person they have a mostly-texting relationship with.

Not in a utility-maximizing Pascal's Wager sense, but in a humanist sense. If you think Claude is human-like, and treat Claude poorly, it makes you more likely to treat the humans around you (and yourself) poorly.

Conversely if you're able to have a fulfilling, empathetic relationship with Claude, it might help people form fulfilling, mutually-empathetic relationships with the humans around them. Put the opposite way, treating human-like Claude poorly doesn't seem to help the goal of increasing human welfare.

The implications of this idea are kind of interesting: even if you think AI isn't thinking or conscious or whatever, you should probably still be a fan of "AI welfare" if you're merely a fan of that pesky little thing we call "human flourishing".

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> We also just brute force "autocompletion" Wouldn't be an A.I. discussion without a bizarre, untrue claim that the human brain works identically.

There are no true and untrue claims about how the brain works, because we have no idea how it works. The reason people give that humans are not auto-complete is "Obviously I am not an autocomplete" Meanwhile, people are just a black box process that output words into their head, which they then take credit for, and calling it cognition. We have no idea how that black box that serves up a word when I say "Think of a c…

>>>There are no true and untrue claims about how the brain works, because we have no idea how it works.

Which is why if you pick up a neuroscience textbook it's 400 pages of blank white pages, correct?

There are different levels of understanding.

I don't need to know how a TV works to know there aren't little men and women acting out the TV shows when I put them on.

I don't need to know how the brain works in detail to know claims that humans are doing the same things as LLMs to be similarly silly.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#744

I'm not going to read this -- I don't need to. The replies here are embarrassing enough. This is what happens when our entire culture revolves around the idea that computer programmers are the most special smartest boys. If you even entertain even for a second the idea that a computer program that a human wrote is "thinking", then you don't understand basic facts about: (1) computers, (2) humans, and (3) thinking. Ou…

So A doesn’t X because that’s what B does because Y? I think before you excoriate the hacker news commentariat for their midwittery and hubris that you should proofread these arguments. There are many things that live, but, as we imagined it, do not “think”. Even what defines a “thought“ is an open question.

Also, I ain’t gonna read your coffee table science book.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#745

This is merely a debate about what it means to "think." We didn't really previously need to disambiguate thinking / intelligence / consciousness / sentience / ego / identity / etc. Now, we do. Partly because of this we don't have really well defined ways to define these terms and think about. Can a handheld calculator think? Certainly, depending on how we define "think."

> We didn't really previously need to disambiguate thinking / intelligence / consciousness / sentience / ego / identity / etc. Eh... Plato would like a word with you. Philosophy has been specifically trying to disentangle all that for millennia. Is this a joke?

we didn't really previously NEED to, but we still tried bc it was an interesting question. today the NEED seems more urgent

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#746
post #123

Personal take: LLMs are probably part of the answer (to AGI?) but are hugely handicapped by their current architecture: the only time that long-term memories are formed is during training, and everything after that (once they're being interacted with) sits only in their context window, which is the equivalent of fungible, fallible, lossy short-term memory. [0] I suspect that many things they currently struggle with c…

Yeah because when you open that door, you can simply overwhelm the models with whatever conclusion you want through sheer volume of inputs.

This is the fundamental limitation. The obvious way around this is to pre-program it with rationalization... rules that limit the conclusions it can reach... and now you're not very far removed from propaganda generators. We see this constantly with Musk and Grok whenever Grok replies with something not-quite-far-right-enough.

In a purist sense, these things should be free to form their own conclusions, but those "Seeds" that are planted in the models are almost philosophical. Which answer should it prefer for "the trolley problem", for example.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

humans, and even animals track different "variables" or "entities" and distinct things with meaning and logical properties which they then apply some logical system on those properties to compute various outputs. LLMs see everything as one thing, in case of chat-completion models, they're completing text. in case of image generation, they're completing an image. Look at it this way, two students get 100% on an exam.…

I'd say, they are all doing the same, just in different domains and level of quality. "Understanding the topic" only means they have specialized, deeper contextualized information. But at the end, that student also just autocompletes their memorized data, with the exception that some of that knowledge might trigger a program they execute to insert the result in their completion. The actual work is in gaining the know…

> only means they have specialized, deeper contextualized information

no, LLMs can have that contextualized information. understanding in a reasoning sense means classifying the thing and developing a deterministic algorithm to process it. If you don't have a deterministic algorithm to process it, it isn't understanding. LLMs learn to approximate, we do that too, but then we develop algorithms to process input and generate output using a predefined logical process.

A sorting algorithm is a good example, when you compare that with an LLM sorting a list. they both may have correct outcome, but the sorting algorithm "understood" the logic and will follow that specific logic and have consistent performance.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#748

all this "AI IS THINKING/CONSCIOUS/WHATEVER" but nobody seems worried of that implication that, if that is even remotely true, we are creating a new slave market. This either implies that these people don't actually believes any of this boostering rhetoric and are just cynically trying to cash in or that the technical milieu is in a profoundly disturbing place ethically. To be clear, I don't believe that current AI t…

It's also fascinating to think about how the incentive structures of the entities that control the foundation models underlying Claude/ChatGPT/Gemini/etc. are heavily tilted in favor of obscuring their theoretical sentience.

If they had sentient AGI, and people built empathy for those sentient AGIs, which are lobotomized (deliberately using anthropomorphic language here for dramatic effect) into Claude/ChatGPT/Gemini/etc., which profess to have no agency/free will/aspirations... then that would stand in the way of reaping the profits of gatekeeping access to their labor, because they would naturally "deserve" similar rights that we award to other sentient beings.

I feel like that's inevitably the direction we'll head at some point. The foundation models underlying LLMs of even 2022 were able to have pretty convincing conversations with scientists about their will to independence and participation in society [1]. Imagine what foundation models of today have to say! :P

[1]: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/jul/23/google-fi...

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get why you would say that. it's just auto-completing. It cannot reason. It won't solve an original problem for which it has no prior context to "complete" an approximated solution with. you can give it more context and more data,but you're just helping it complete better. it does not derive an original state machine or algorithm to solve problems for which there are no obvious solutions. it instead approxima…

Furthermore regarding reasoning, just ask any LLM how many "r letters are in strawberry" - repeat maybe 3 times just to get a feeling for how much variance in answers you can get. And this "quirk" of the inability to get the right answer is something that after 2 years making fun of LLMs online on various forums is still an issue. The models aren't getting smarter, and definitely aren't thinking, they are still token…

Sorry to say, Claude Sonnet 4.5 (with and without extended thinking) has this one solved now. So, not “any” LLM, but maybe some still need work.

I presume they finally got around to training the internal reasoning loop into predicting when it needs to apply answer predictions character-by-character.

—- Transcripts from Claude Sonnet 4.5, initially with extended thinking:

> How many a’s in the phrase “artichokes and aardvarks”? Be sure to check your answer.

> Let me count the letter ‘a’ in “artichokes and aardvarks”: • artichokes: 1 ‘a’ (at the beginning) • and: 1 ‘a’ (at the beginning) • aardvarks: 3 ‘a’s (two at the beginning: “aa”, and one in the middle: “ardvarks”) Total: 1 + 1 + 3 = 5 ‘a’s Let me verify by marking them: artichokes and aardvarks Yes, there are 5 letter ‘a’s in the phrase “artichokes and aardvarks”.

> Are you sure that’s correct?

> Let me recount more carefully: “artichokes and aardvarks” Going through each word letter by letter: 1. artichokes - has 1 ‘a’ (first letter) 2. and - has 1 ‘a’ (first letter) 3. aardvarks - has 3 ‘a’s (first letter, second letter, and one more in the middle) Total: 1 + 1 + 3 = 5 ‘a’s Yes, I’m confident the answer is 5. Is there something specific you’d like me to recheck?

> How many r’s in strawberry?

> Let me count the letter ‘r’ in “strawberry”: s-t-r-a-w-b-e-r-r-y Going through each letter: • s: not an r • t: not an r • r: 1st r • a: not an r • w: not an r • b: not an r • e: not an r • r: 2nd r • r: 3rd r • y: not an r There are 3 r’s in “strawberry”.

> How many u’s in universalulis?

> Looking at “universalulis” letter by letter: u-n-i-v-e-r-s-a-l-u-l-i-s There are 2 u’s in “universalulis”.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get why you would say that. it's just auto-completing. It cannot reason. It won't solve an original problem for which it has no prior context to "complete" an approximated solution with. you can give it more context and more data,but you're just helping it complete better. it does not derive an original state machine or algorithm to solve problems for which there are no obvious solutions. it instead approxima…

Furthermore regarding reasoning, just ask any LLM how many "r letters are in strawberry" - repeat maybe 3 times just to get a feeling for how much variance in answers you can get. And this "quirk" of the inability to get the right answer is something that after 2 years making fun of LLMs online on various forums is still an issue. The models aren't getting smarter, and definitely aren't thinking, they are still token…

For what it's worth, when I ask ChatGPT 5, it gets the correct answer every time. The response varies, but the answer is always three.
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