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IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

haaretz.com

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#741

Post by michaelsshaw »

cropcirclbureau wrote: post #232
the__alchemist wrote: post #218

Some context first so my opinion isn't misconstrued as as leftist stereotype. This is within context of the behavior described in the article. - I'm a Jew in USA, and served in the military for more than a decade. - I used to get annoyed by the Palestinian protests I'd see in the years before this, and generally sided with Israel, and the operations its military performed in counter-Shia-militia operations etc in the…

Hamas are not Shia, they're Sunni. And Shia is not some some inherently violent ideology as your usage of the word there implies. And, while I'm at it, you should know the human crimes in the Gaza strip long predate Oct 7. Chemical weapons, starvation, terror bombing, these are tactics that the IDF's deployed in short time I've been alive (21st century).

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#742

Post by computerthings »

throw627004 wrote: post #580
maeil wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Swedish. Since I was a child, for decades, I was taught and never questioned the idea that Germany had learnt from their history, in the most admirable way. That it was really ingrained into the German culture to never let anything like the holocaust happen again. That the education system there was very good in really making people understand why it happened, what went wrong, and how to make sure there would be…

As a German, I think you should cut your colleague some slack. There's 8 billion people in the world who aren't German. If there's one topic that Germans don't chip in on, it won't move the needle. Whatever we as Germans say on Israel/Palestine will be taken the wrong way by someone. Critical of Israel? Still an antisemite! Supportive of Israel? Pathological guilt! It super sucks, but I too will leave it to others to…

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#743

Post by bluehex »

YZF wrote: post #735
acdha wrote: post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where do we place Israel on that scale? Is there more attention on Israel vs. other similar world events? I’d flip that around: why shouldn’t we expect Israel to be better than a terrorist group like Hamas or the deeply evil Iranian government? When some Americans complained that they were being held to a higher standard than Al-Qaeda or ISIL, they were rightly criticized for betraying our national aspiration to le…

My scale isn't ISIL or Al-Qaeda. My scale is the US, the UK, Australia, France etc. The scale of the western world.

> Iran and Hamas firing missiles and rockets into population centers is a war crime too. So is their embedding and use of civilians. The entire strategy of Israel's opponents in the middle east is to engage in war crimes. Where do we place Israel on that scale?

I feel like you're moving the target now. Those are your words above.

But yes, if your scale is that of the western world then harsh criticism of Israel's war crimes should be expected and welcome.

I don't mean to put words in your mouth, maybe you did mean something along those lines and I'm misinterpreting.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#744

Post by edanm »

like_any_other wrote: post #693
edanm wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll provide context too - I'm a Jewish Israeli. I'd probably be considered left (or even far-left) by Israeli standards, but I'm in the "pro-Israeli" camp as conventionally understood online. This Haaretz article is very troubling. To the extent it's accurate, there's not much question that it reflects war crimes. A few thoughts: 1. The article itself says there is an ongoing investigation into some of these accusat…

> I'd probably be considered left (or even far-left) by Israeli standards, but I'm in the "pro-Israeli" camp as conventionally understood online. Would you consider ethno-nationalists of other nations (far) left, based on (speculating) their economic/women's rights/LGBT/other social stances? (Orthogonally, I can certainly empathize with being pro-something, but not pro-everything-that-something-does. There's certainl…

> Would you consider ethno-nationalists of other nations (far) left, based on (speculating) their economic/women's rights/LGBT/other social stances?

If your implication is that I'm an ethno-nationalist, I don't think that characterizes Israel or my thoughts about it, however much "ethnostate" is a favorite slur of people to use against Israel.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#745

Post by YZF »

SauciestGNU wrote: post #740
YZF wrote: post #720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ICC is a political circus and Israel is not a signatory. It has no jurisdiction. Even if Israel was a signatory the ICC should only intervene after Israel has done its own investigation and if it failed to hold the relevant standards. If there were war crimes committed then people need to be held accountable. The scale of the alleged war crimes is totally different than the crimes persecuted in Nuremberg.

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#746

Post by leereeves »

edanm wrote: post #744
like_any_other wrote: post #693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd probably be considered left (or even far-left) by Israeli standards, but I'm in the "pro-Israeli" camp as conventionally understood online. Would you consider ethno-nationalists of other nations (far) left, based on (speculating) their economic/women's rights/LGBT/other social stances? (Orthogonally, I can certainly empathize with being pro-something, but not pro-everything-that-something-does. There's certainl…

> Would you consider ethno-nationalists of other nations (far) left, based on (speculating) their economic/women's rights/LGBT/other social stances? If your implication is that I'm an ethno-nationalist, I don't think that characterizes Israel or my thoughts about it, however much "ethnostate" is a favorite slur of people to use against Israel.

Ethnostate is not a slur, it's an accurate description of a country that itself passed the Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People.

(A basic law in Israel is roughly like a constitutional amendment in the US.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law%3A_Israel_as_the_Nat...

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#747

Post by [deleted] »

YZF wrote: post #688
edanm wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll provide context too - I'm a Jewish Israeli. I'd probably be considered left (or even far-left) by Israeli standards, but I'm in the "pro-Israeli" camp as conventionally understood online. This Haaretz article is very troubling. To the extent it's accurate, there's not much question that it reflects war crimes. A few thoughts: 1. The article itself says there is an ongoing investigation into some of these accusat…

As another Jewish Israeli I agree this is concerning. I do want you to consider the context here on Hacker News though. You and me have context, we understand the history, we understand at least something about wars and how they are fought. Most people here do not. The problem isn't whether firing on civilians with no reason when they come to get food is wrong or right. We all know it's wrong. The soldiers in Gaza kn…

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#748

Post by jopsen »

earnestinger wrote: post #637
jopsen wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to prevent any possibility of peaceful reconciliation This seems like a feasible goal. > and drive the Palestinians to eventual expulsion or eradication. That strategy haven't worked for what 50 years, what makes anyone think it'll work anytime ever? The Palestinians don't exactly have anywhere to go.

If there is a lot of malnutrition, population numbers will change without migration.

That would take a long time, and the world won't look away for that long -- I hope not

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#749

Post by goopypoop »

YZF wrote: post #733
tootie wrote: post #716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're misreading. The civilian casualties are very much intentional. They are being ordered to fire on unarmed people seeking food. There are verified reports of IDF targeting journalists and EMTs. I am also Jewish American and I am 100% convinced that Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians. I find it utterly reprehensible that this opinion can ever be considered antisemitic since the actions of the Isra…

What is you definition of "genocide against the Palestinians"? Are you including Palestinians that are Israeli citizens? The West Bank? Those living outside the region? Word choice matters here. Is Israel executing a plan to kill all Gazans? I am 100% convinced Israel is not actually committing a genocide against Palestinians. That claim has no factual support. Do I agree with everything Israel is doing? No. Are ther…

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#750

Post by Xunjin »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #734
bigyabai wrote: post #724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't justify annexing neighbors, destroying civilian infrastructure or fratricide on the IDF's behalf, though.

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Following your logic, Russia should keep annexing Ukraine until it no longer exist as justifiable, does it make sense for you?
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