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Redis is open source again

antirez.com

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Re: Redis is open source again

#741

Post by amrocha »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #713
amrocha wrote: post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that if there was no business behind projects like Redis and ElasticSearch you wouldn’t be using them either. You’d be using some random Microsoft or Oracle product. I’m guessing you don’t want that either, so come up with a way to make sure Redis has the financial support it needs to hire engineers to do the full time work that part time contributors like us don’t want to.

The point is I don't have to come up with any such thing. It is not true that if redis didn't exist then I'd be using some MS or Oracle product. I might, if it was practical. Or someone might have invented redis, or I might if that was a space that still needed filling and somehow no one else did it. It's like saying if linux didn't exist we'd all be using NT. That's completely ridiculous. No we would not. BSD alread…

This goes back to my original point. You’re living in fantasy land.

In reality, that’s not how it works. If to use Redis your company had to assign someone to do maintenance work then you just wouldn’t be allowed to use Redis. And yes, you would be using MS Redis, because none of the clones would be secure and supported enough for you to feel good using them.

Re: Redis is open source again

#742

Post by amrocha »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #725
amrocha wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like copyleft licenses! But they don’t solve the problem of cloud providers pulling the rug out from under companies based on open source companies.

There is no problem to solve because there is no rug to pull out. Redis are not owed anything and no one stole anything from them. When I try to make a business hosting copies of an http server, I am not pulling the rug out from under nginx who actually wrote the http server. And when AWS does that better and than me, they are not pulling any rug out from under me, or at least not in any way that is special to any of…

Ok friend, when you come up with a business model to support OSS that doesn’t get destroyed by the internet giants let me know.

Re: Redis is open source again

#743

Post by Brian_K_White »

amrocha wrote: post #742
Brian_K_White wrote: post #725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no problem to solve because there is no rug to pull out. Redis are not owed anything and no one stole anything from them. When I try to make a business hosting copies of an http server, I am not pulling the rug out from under nginx who actually wrote the http server. And when AWS does that better and than me, they are not pulling any rug out from under me, or at least not in any way that is special to any of…

Ok friend, when you come up with a business model to support OSS that doesn’t get destroyed by the internet giants let me know.

No one needs to come up with anything. OSS is already just fine. I don't know what you want, but it seems to be something you never had any right to, and no one needs to come up with anything to satisfy it.

Re: Redis is open source again

#744

Post by dcow »

miki123211 wrote: post #692
larodi wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "if your business value is your codebase, it's hard to build a business whilst literally giving it away". perhaps then it comes as no surprise that some very outspoken open-source proponents do not open-source their core business components. I can understand they do it in order to exist as a company, as busineses, but I don't understand why they have to endure being shamed for staying closed-source, while all their…

A sufficiently capable LLM might be good enough to do cleanroom design on its own, with little to no human assistance. That would destroy the entire idea of copyright as it exists for software. You need one agent that can write a complete specification of any piece of software, either just by using it and inferring how it works, or by reverse engineering if not prohibited by the license. You then have a lawyer in the…

Humans can also do that, they’re just slower and presumably more expensive.

Re: Redis is open source again

#745

Post by immibis »

skywhopper wrote: post #388
ksec wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am thinking the same that going to AGPL may actually push more people to Valkey. Although I haven't checked if ValKey any substantial development since the fork.

In fact, some of Redis 8’s new features were taken from Valkey source code.

Is that why they're AGPL now?

Re: Redis is open source again

#746

Post by growse »

bccdee wrote: post #678
growse wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is training a model on GPL code and then having it write code any different to having a human read GPL code and then write code? Unless there's a specific copyright claim over a specific piece of code that was copied and published, it's hard to see how the GPL has any relevance.

Because, unlike humans, LLMs reliably reproduce exact excerpts from their training data. It's very easy to get image generation models to spit out screenshots from movies.

That doesn't mean that all of the output from an LLM trained on GPL code is a derivative work (and therefore GPL'd too).

Re: Redis is open source again

#747

Post by growse »

palata wrote: post #720
growse wrote: post #706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can we start at "humans are not computers", maybe? Sure. So it stands to reason that "computers" are not bound by human laws. So an LLM that finds a piece of copyright data out there on the internet, downloads it, and republishes it has not broken any law? It certainly can't be prosecuted. My original point was that copyright protections are about (amongst other things) protecting distribution and derivative works…

> So an LLM that finds a piece of copyright data out there on the internet, downloads it, and republishes it has not broken any law? Are you even trying? A gun that kills a person has not broken any law? It certainly can't be prosecuted. > I'm not seeing a coherent argument that feeding a copyrighted work (that you obtained legally) into a machine is breaching anyone's copyright. So you don't see how having an automa…

> So you don't see how having an automated blackbox that takes copyrighted material as an input and provides a competing alternative that can't be proven to come from the input goes against the idea of copyright protections?

Semantically, this is the same as a human reading all of Tom Clancy and then writing a fast-paced action/war/tension novel.

Is that in breach of copyright?

Copyright protects the expression of an idea. Not the idea.

Re: Redis is open source again

#748

Post by francasso »

_msw_ wrote: post #160
antirez wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. The fundamental idea was mine. Ideas can be improved, of course, and that's good. That was my point. However, allow me to say that Redis is fundamentally a "software of ideas" than anything else. Technologically it is far from impressive (Redis, ValKey, all the forks). 2. Redis 8 improves the same idea, too, released today. 3. If you claim [in a different comment here] you provided a lot of code to Redis, why you…

This exchange makes me sad. I know we can do better. I don't understand why so many people think that it's impossible to have open source in your heart while working for a big company in your day job. I don't understand why people who have dedicated a lot of their time and emotional energy to keep open source ways alive and help build a community effort are attacked because they work for a company that needs to be ma…

My friend, Amazon being legally allowed to behave like a schmuck doesn't imply the community can't point that out and complain about it. AWS (legally) exploits open source projects, and that's a fact.

There are many actions and behaviours in life that are not illegal but actively worsen society at large if you do them. That companies that are the main contributors to OSS are forced to take drastic measures is just consequence of AWS not being a team player, you should have at least the decency of not commenting here.

PS. I don't have a horse in the race, I'm not a Redis user, I'm just appalled by your behavior.

Re: Redis is open source again

#749

Post by znpy »

fastball wrote: post #452
znpy wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d say that open source definitely lost, and lost real bad. Free Software won, as you ended up adopting the AGPL. It’s an important distinction.

No its not.

One more major piece of software is not open source (BSD) anymore, it's now Free Software (AGPL).

And every time someone talks about Open Source licensing, we'll remember how Redis was BSD and that became a shitshow so bad (everybody was fleeing to Valkey) they had to relicense it to AGPL (Free Software).

If this isn't losing...

Re: Redis is open source again

#750

Post by pabs3 »

acmeian wrote: post #736
pabs3 wrote: post #727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, is there any more public info about this? If not, have you/Redis considered blogging about it?

It was announced back in November: https://redis.io/blog/introducing-azure-managed-redis/

That predates AGPL Redis, so doesn't sound like what I was talking about. Sounds more like a custom license given to Microsoft only.
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