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Pope Francis has died

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Re: Pope Francis has died

#741

Post by lo_zamoyski »

exe34 wrote: post #734
lo_zamoyski wrote: post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s speaking to a popular audience in a poetic fashion. No one believes a pump in your chest is the seat of intellgence, even if it may be involved in some extended and removed manner with the expression of intelligence. If Francis held Thomistic views on the subject, then even the brain, while needed for human intelligence, does not suffice for its operation, as functions like abstraction require the intellect, whi…

> He’s speaking to a popular audience in a poetic fashion. No one believes a pump in your chest is the seat of intellgence, even if it may be involved in some extended and removed manner with the expression of intelligence. others on this very thread are proposing this exact extension. I'll ignore the supernatural suggestion.

You're misreading what I've written and being intentionally obtuse.

I didn't say the heart plays a role in intelligence. I simply allowed for the possibility for the sake of argument. The central claim is that no one (here, Francis and his writers) who uses the word "heart" colloquially is making the claim that the heart-as-organ is the seat of intelligence or what have you.

You're committing a vulgar equivocation fallacy that the average person with common sense would recognize. I have a difficult time believing you don't understand something so obvious.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#742

Post by lo_zamoyski »

andrepd wrote: post #674
lo_zamoyski wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. I’ll also add that many of his admirers as well as his detractors exaggerated his virtues, his merits, and his flaws. He was both the victim of a media and film industry all too eager to spin him into the “progressive pope” — never shying away from quoting him out of context to push an agenda — and the issuer of problematic and ambiguous documents and off-the-cuff remarks that only served to generate confusio…

But jesuits are historically linked to education and the sciences, this is a fact. I agree with the "ambiguous statements" though.

> But jesuits are historically linked to education and the sciences, this is a fact.

Isn't that what I said? I merely said it is not their charism, not their specialty. The point is that in the popular imagination, people elevate them above orders who not only have a better historical record, but whose mission is to educate, study, etc.

That isn't to downplay the good contributions of the Jesuits, but I can point you to Jesuits (who, as an order, are in poor shape these days, tbh) who would say the same thing. The popular imagination is simply ignorant or tendentious on this point in its exaggeration relative to the others.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#743

Post by dhosek »

ithkuil wrote: post #720
senderista wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt many Americans can name a single Canadian province or Mexican state.

just to be clear, mine was not a jab against the georgaphy or culture knowledge of the average Italian. They are likely to know more details about German, French or Spanish geographical or culinary features than something from the balkans despite sharing a border.

Indeed. I grew up in a cultural milieu that was overwhelmingly Slavic (Chicago suburbs, mostly Czech and Polish but smaller numbers of Slovaks, Slovenes, Croats and Serbs) and even within that, the lack of understanding of distinctions was surprising (so many people thought Slovak and Slovene were the same thing, which isn’t helped by the fact that the countries have very similar flags since independence and near-identical demonyms in their own languages) although I would note that the Slovenes, Croats and Serbs were all highly aware of the distinctions between themselves and even as cultural self-identification as specific Slavs in Chicago has faded, there’s still a low-level hostility between Slovenes/Croats and Serbs.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#744

Post by dhosek »

senderista wrote: post #638
ithkuil wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I come from Croatia and have lived in Italy for a long time and it's very rare to find anybody who can barely place our countries on a map until fairly recently and let alone heard about foods or drinks. Not zero people of course, but very few

I doubt many Americans can name a single Canadian province or Mexican state.

I suspect many Americans would have trouble identifying all the American states. I wouldn’t use Americans as a model of geographic awareness.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#745

Post by mvieira38 »

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #617
neves wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that Antiqua et Nova was authored by the Church. With its profound philosophical tradition, the Church offers insights in this text that surpass anything ever written by Silicon Valley entrepreneurs.

Indeed. I’ll also add that many of his admirers as well as his detractors exaggerated his virtues, his merits, and his flaws. He was both the victim of a media and film industry all too eager to spin him into the “progressive pope” — never shying away from quoting him out of context to push an agenda — and the issuer of problematic and ambiguous documents and off-the-cuff remarks that only served to generate confusio…

Jesuit scholarship, especially in the last 100 years, is noteworthy for generating impressive literature while contributing close to nothing to the Church. See Rahner, Balthasar, de Lubac, Chardin... Garbage through and through

Re: Pope Francis has died

#746

Post by dhosek »

mariuolo wrote: post #599
dhosek wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the child of Italian immigrants to Argentina, Francis was quite fluent in Italian. He’s old enough that his formation would have included significant Latin instruction as well. I would guess that Benedict’s Latin skills were superior, but Francis was reasonably conversant in the language from what I understand. The thing that I found interesting was during trump’s visit to the Vatican, he asked trump’s Slovenian w…

> As the child of Italian immigrants to Argentina, Francis was quite fluent in Italian. Actually he was more fluent in the Piedmontese dialect. His Italian was somewhat wobbly at the time of his election.

As an American, it’s always a bit startling to realize that “German,” “French,” “Italian,” etc. are in many ways hugely diverse language families with dialects that are often not intelligible by all speakers (as opposed to English where, with a few extreme exceptions, there’s not really a problem with mutual intelligibility and the written language elides most of those distinctions).

I don’t have enough broad knowledge of Spanish (Castellano) to comment on its intelligibility across dialects (although Argentine/Uruguayan Spanish is more of a challenge to my Mexican-Spanish trained brain than European Spanish).

Re: Pope Francis has died

#747

Post by dhosek »

senderista wrote: post #570
dhosek wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the child of Italian immigrants to Argentina, Francis was quite fluent in Italian. He’s old enough that his formation would have included significant Latin instruction as well. I would guess that Benedict’s Latin skills were superior, but Francis was reasonably conversant in the language from what I understand. The thing that I found interesting was during trump’s visit to the Vatican, he asked trump’s Slovenian w…

Well of course Slovenia is Italy's neighbor, but I guess that's more surprising from a non-Italian.

Even so, Francis lived most of his life in Argentina and could be excused for not knowing about the cuisine of a neighboring country. Certainly most of the press was ignorant, with many reporters thinking Francis said “pizza” and not “potica.”

Re: Pope Francis has died

#748

Post by mvieira38 »

tptacek wrote: post #659
michaelsbradley wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, SSPX is a thing. I’ve never been to one of their chapels myself, though there is one here in St. Louis and some folks who now attend the local oratory run by the ICKSP used to be regulars there. As a group, they seem to have a bit of a chip on their shoulder (irregular communion and all that), which has not been my experience with the ICKSP and FSSP, who are in full communion with the local bishops and Rome, ev…

Regarding obscurantism, I don't know how one gets around that observation. It's striking to me that even many TLM celebrants aren't fluent in the language. You know why you're going and you seem to have a good reason for it, and I respect that. I think the rap on the TLM is that, in addition to reasonable people like yourself, it also attracts a lot of whackjobs, some of whom have unfortunately included priests. I'd…

Bishop Williamson, the source of that statement, was kicked from the SSPX partly due to raging and irrational antisemitism and misogyny. If that's enough for you to never set foot in a chapel, you shouldn't be Catholic at all, just take a look at what many popes and saints have said and done about jewish people, it's far worse

Re: Pope Francis has died

#749

Post by mvieira38 »

michaelsbradley wrote: post #402
gortok wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed; and when the Second Vatican Council decided Mass should be said in the vernacular, the obligation of the Church was to follow. Instead, the conservatives of the church ('conservative' here means those that emphasize adhering to tradition and are adverse to change) created a rift by eschewing this change and even heightening the importance of the Latin Mass, creating the impression that a mass spoken in the lo…

> the Second Vatican Council decided Mass should be said in the vernacular It didn't actually. See Sacrosanctum Concilium : https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_coun... Vatican II opened the way for use of vernacular in the Mass while also directing "use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites". In practice, after the overhaul of the Latin rites was completed and promulgated (pu…

No idea why you're being downvoted, you're correct. There was and still is pushback against the liturgical reform even from pro-Vatican II priests and bishops

Re: Pope Francis has died

#750

Post by mvieira38 »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #500
ralfd wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> including rightfully limiting the Latin mass Why is that a political thing though? The mass of the roman church was for centuries (almost all it’s history?) in latin.

Imagine going to church every Saturday or Sunday and sitting through a 1 hour service that you don't understand. The conservative side of the church has decided that it hates change, and since the Latin services were mostly cast aside, that's a bad thing to them.

Modern catholics and protestants are the exception in regards to "understanding" their rites. For centuries religions have maintained "sacred languages" or at the very least sacred dialects, with the intention of emphasizing continuity between generations. Also, you don't really seem to understand how the Latin Mass works. The Ordo is repeated the same way every mass, so anyone that remotely cares knows what it says. The proper, including the readings, changes most days, but many are repeated throughout the year, like the mass of the virgins, and also repeats every year in the exact same way, so there's no reason for a concerned faithful not to buy a book with them if they care so much. Readings are frequently read in vernacular before the sermon, if pertinent, but they are not core to the mass so there's not much reason to care
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