Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water • Hacker News Board

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#741

Post by hilbert42 » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 2:17 PM UTC

FollowingTheDao wrote: post #707

hilbert42 wrote: post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably, if you're in the US or any of those countries that mandate folate then you don't eat bread or anything containing flour—or you have to get special flour without it. I'd imagine that must be very difficult for you. BTW, that fluoride reference refers to excessive fluoride in water whether natural or added. I've not entered the fluoride debate here except to ask a question. I'd certainly object if fluoride…

It is difficult, but not impossible. Many bakeries do not add them to their dough and Whole Foods has some brands without them. Do not get me started on the IMP and GMP they are adding to foods now...excitatory purine flavor enhancers in the form of things like "Malted Barely Flour" https://www.eurofins.com/media-centre/newsletters/food-newsl... https://www.cspinet.org/article/guanosine-monophosphate-gmp-... https://…

"Folate is an essential water-soluble B vitamin found in foods, including dark-green leafy vegetables and legumes."

The above quote from that Springer reference reminds me of plant toxins in common foods especially in dark-green leafy ones, spinach, rhubarb, etc. Oxalic acid is one of the main ones but there are many others.

If you worry about what you eat you ought to be concerned about these. It's understandable that these toxins exist in these plants as they use them as protection against insects etc. Incidentally, I use oxalic acid industrially and I'm very careful how I handle it.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#742

Post by UltraSane » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 2:18 PM UTC

Jimmc414 wrote: post #163

UltraSane wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is not real debate, just some people who don't understand how chemistry works.

I'd really like to hear your take

What do you mean? Florine creates a substance in human teeth that is much more resistant to decay than calcium.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#743

Post by hayst4ck » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 2:18 PM UTC

aikinai wrote: post #508

hayst4ck wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can read this country's founding philosophy directly: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.— That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men , deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,—That whenever any Form…

Yeah, that’s just the start. “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” This demonstrates an intentional effort by the founders to strictly limit federal authority by explicitly enumerating government powers and leaving everything else beyond federal reach. It underscores that their conception of f…

They were anti tyranny. Governments tend to be tyrannical, but they weren't against governments, they were against tyranny.

Timothy Snyder is the modern embodiment of founding father ideology/enlightenment philosophy and my original post was almost directly lifted from his talks/books.

Yes they may have been in favor of small government, but we have the tyranny of corporate power now. When healthcare is tied to a job, women are working instead of doing child care, the combined wages are not enough/barely enough to afford rent and necessities, and there are no savings for emergencies, that leads to the tyranny of business and wage slavery.

It leads to individuals without the means to withdrawal consent from a tyrannical government. It structurally disables acts of disobedience. Jefferson said rebellion unto tyranny is obedience to god, not rebellion unto governments. They were not subject to the levels of concentrated corporate power that grew out of industrialization. Robber Barrons were also tyrants who acted tyrannically.

There's probably something to be said about self reliance and protestant work ethic which can result in obedient workers willing to work under poor conditions for cultural reasons, but thinking that government is the only entity capable of unchecked power when we have businesses with a higher revenue than some entire countries/states shows a dogmatic chasing of a justification for a belief, rather than following the principles towards an assessment the principles themselves would lead to. It's a kind of originalism. The appearance of their beliefs, but not the substance of them.

A republic... If we can keep it.

Well good luck keeping it if the average citizen is too weak to project any kind of political power. Good luck having strong citizens (or a cohesive society) without strong social programs like public education.

> rather than merely protecting from outright tyranny.

Enlightenment ideology at it's core, the very central point of it, which our documents were written into respect to, says you give up some rights in order to have other rights protected [from tyranny]. That is why man leaves the state of nature... Greater protection from tyranny.

The constitution was a document meant to be adapted. The goal of the implementation is plainly stated:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#744

Post by KingLancelot » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 2:22 PM UTC

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Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#745

Post by iamtheworstdev » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 2:24 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #491

nozzlegear wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one thing you're not considering (especially when you say we should vote with our feet) is poverty. It’s true that fluoride toothpaste is widely available, but for people in poverty, of which there are millions in our country, basic hygiene items like toothpaste and a toothbrush aren’t guaranteed. Neither is it guaranteed that everyone has a perfect daily brushing habit like the dentist tells us; there are pe…

If you're not brushing your teeth, periodontitis will get you; the resulting bone decay will cause your teeth will fall out. But sure, great, the water was fluoridated, so I guess it's nice that those now-missing teeth are free of caries?

there are people who own a toothbrush but do not purchase toothpaste. money is not something everyone has and when you start having to choose between certain things, tough choices get made.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#746

Post by scarface_74 » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 2:26 PM UTC

travisgriggs wrote: post #722

shireboy wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This take has a few problems: Poor people in the US are capable of using fluoride toothpaste and flossing. At least at homeless shelters at outreach things I’ve been to, toothpaste and toothbrushes are freely available. Your argument hinges on them being incapable on the whole and needing a Benevolent But Superior Intelligence to provide an alternative for them. Second, it completely ignores any debate over effective…

I think equating poor people to homeless people is non sequitur. What about the vast population of “barely making it” people? But have it your way. I’ve given up on American people (I exist as a 54 year old one amongst them). Decades of wealth have created a society so “me” centric it makes me nauseous sick. Never have I respected those older than me so little. It makes me so sad what we’ve done for those younger.

It’s even worse than that. People aren’t even voting for their own self interest. The people in the poorest states and in poor counties in richer states in the United States are consistently voting against universal healthcare, affordable post high school education and are cheering the government taking away services that they depend on the most.

There are two basic categories of causes.

The first is being pure anti science - anti vaccine, anti fluoride, etc

The second is they are more concerned about “God and guns”, immigrants, and the demographic shifts in the US than their own interest.

Oh and the third is the cult of MAGA.

I’m 50, Native born American and on a meta level it concerns me. On a micro level, me and mine will be okay.

While I am not one of these shrill people saying I’m leaving the US tomorrow, my wife and I are definitely putting plans in place to have a dual residency (not citizenship) in Costa Rica closer to when I get ready to retire.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#747

Post by shlant » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 2:26 PM UTC

adrian_b wrote: post #399

bsza wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I acknowledge it is not a "solved" issue, I find it bizarre nonetheless, simply because it is so disproportionately low-stakes compared to the amount of controversy around it. Increased risk of cavities versus tentative evidence of losing 1-2 IQ points at 1.5 mg/L? Sounds like a Monty Python sketch to me that people would get so worked up over this.

The risk of cavities is reduced by using toothpaste or mouth washes with fluoride, not by drinking fluoridated water. Almost all fluoride from the drinking water does not have any effect on tooth enamel, because it has contact with it only for a few seconds, except for an infinitesimal fraction that may exit again the body in saliva. On the other hand, the harmful effects of fluoride in drinking water are certain and…

> The risk of cavities is reduced by using toothpaste or mouth washes with fluoride, not by drinking fluoridated water.

it always surprises me how willing people are to just make something up and be confident in doing so. We've know for almost 75 years that water fluoridation reduces tooth decay[1] and yet here you are straight up denying that.

Do you just not care if you are correct? or do you know you aren't but are driven by the beliefs you already hold?

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/oral-health/data-research/facts-stats/fa...

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#748

Post by isleyaardvark » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 2:26 PM UTC

ghuroo1 wrote: post #405

attila-lendvai wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

reality check: europe never had fluoride in the water. still looking for the dental crisis.

most people’s teeth in europe do not look great.. specially when compared to north americans. from my experience, only people who are serious about their mouth health and go to the dentist at least twice a year, seem to have healthy and good looking teeth.

There's a difference between cosmetic dentistry (teeth whitening and the like) and regular dental health.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#749

Post by Muromec » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 2:26 PM UTC

__s wrote: post #703

themgt wrote: post #670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What needs to stop happening is people ignoring objective reality just because the results happen to align with the other "team's" position on something. "Out of a population of about three-quarters of a billion, under 14 million people (approximately 2%) in Europe receive artificially-fluoridated water." The problem I continually see in the USA is the ascription of differences of opinion on [any topic] to America's…

Fluorinated table salt. Naturally fluorinated water sources. Public healthcare that covers dental European policy isn't based on modern fluoridation being dangerous, it's based on having alternative systems in place (which vary by country) In Windsor Ontario, across from Detroit, they took fluoride out of water for nearly a decade before reversing that decision based on results: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor…

>Public healthcare that covers dental

laughts nerviously in Dutch

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#750

Post by bobjordan » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 2:28 PM UTC

hayst4ck wrote: post #347

Putting fluoride in water promotes freedom. That sounds crazy, but let me justify it. If you are poor you can't go anywhere or buy anything. You're not free if you're poor. If you are sick, you may be confined to a hospital bed or not feel good enough to do anything. If you are sick you're not free. Putting fluoride in water reduces dental costs and incidence of cavities and therefore tooth infections, particularly a…

What in the Berkeley kind of logic is this? You have a pretty solid core logical structure. But, the conclusion is weak. The argument’s weakness lies in its simplifications and the final political assertion, which, although plausible within certain ideological frameworks, isn't logically proven by the earlier premise.