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Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

bbc.com

741–750 of 1001 posts

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#741

On the plus side, at least Marco Rubio seemed completely embarrassed to be sitting in the room with them. He was sinking and sinking into that sofa.

Haha, no. He praised Trump immediately after.

https://nitter.poast.org/SecRubio/status/1895554419305091087

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#744
This is exactly why no country should rely on other country for their survival and security. Powerful nations have shown time and again in the past how they can abandon you at a drop of a hat. Never ever rely on other country for your safety, you'll be screwed.

Imagine your country being usurped because people in some another country voted for someone who may have ties with your enemy.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#745

I would like to know what the alternatives are. None that I can think of are palatable: 1. Support Ukraine enough so that Russia doesn't take too much more territory, but not enough for Russia to feel threatened and escalate the war. This was the Biden plan and it sounds like what Europe wants. I just don't see how this ends the war. Is this just buying time for someone to depose Putin? 2. Support Ukraine enough so i…

#1 is the least bad because Putin only has the resources to keep going for so long and will eventually have to quit (while looking for a way to save face). There is a lot of resentment in Russia about their boys dying in Afghanistan and at some point the Russian people will not put up with the loss of life anymore.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#746

Zelesnky and Trump both want peace, but what is peace? The political spectrum is divided chiefly by how one views what peace is. On one side, John Locke's and the American founding father's, peace is the presence of justice. On the other side Thomas Hobbes' and Russia's, peace is the absence of violence. When you feel wronged, do you submit, or do you fight? If you fight you fight for justice. If you submit, it's bec…

Zelensky wants his country back. He would love for Russia to peacefully give Ukraine back. Probably not going to happen.

Trump's brain's actions are guided by a deep hatred of Ukraine. The Ukrainian cause is tightly bound to the memory of the Biden administration. The Ukrainian security services leaked the Paul Manafort diaries to Western press. The Ukrainian Phone Call was behind Trump's first impeachment.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#747
post #82

It looks like the US wants a regime change in Ukraine, it's possible that this became a pre condition from russia for talks to go forward. OTOH, a minerals deal with the US ensures that the US will have a stake in defending the postwar ukraine. Lots of drama and optics involved for sure, but it seems the outcome or the talks was predetermined JdVance will not last for long - is there procedure to replace him?

I think Vance will stay; he’s playing Trump’s tune.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#748

Bit of a tangent, but I wondered if anyone here is particularly into the serious business of foreign affairs/international relations, and can recommend a primer -- or even a curriculum -- for someone wanting to become more knowledgeable about the field. As with anything, I suspect one is better able to appreciate the ramifications of events of this sort with a more nuanced and informed perspective.

As a complete layman, I highly recommend the YouTube channel of William Spaniel, along with his second channel Lines on Maps Extra. He explains current political events from his academic perspective. Regarding what happened now, the TL/DR conclusion is that Trump wants Europe to focus on its own defense, while US will brace for potential conflict with China. If you think that NATO might get caught up in a two-front war, this makes a lot of sense. The fact that Trump uses unorthodox methods to achieve this isn't exactly interesting on its own, which is why the heated discussion shouldn't really deserve as much attention as it does.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#749

Goodbye to Americas standing in the world. We don't have to suck up to the US any more

Ah yes because Europeans are known for “sucking up” to Americans. If the EU has such competent leadership, why can’t they handle this themselves? It’s not something that affects the average American

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#750

Usually we keep the mainstream news out of here but felt I had to post this one because I've never seen anything like it and was curious to hear other people's perspective here. To me it feels like a setup to look good in front of their audience without any proper desire to engage in true diplomacy.

Everything is like that with this guy. He looks at the world through the prism of old-fashioned network TV ratings. You saw that during the infamous COVID press briefings (the bleach and light ones), holding the bible after the paramilitary cleared the streets in Washington, D.C., when he stood on the balcony after he had COVID, etc., etc.

It's the same thing here — he literally said as much today[1].

As a worldview, that is incomprehensible to me (and I suspect most people), but it really does help understand the choices Donald Trump makes. The spectacle — the attention paid — is what matters to him. How it looks on TV is what matters. How it actually is, is secondary at best, but often irrelevant.

He does a lot of things that "don't make sense" until you think of it that way. That the executive of a country as powerful as the USA perceives the world this way, and makes instinctual decisions on this basis without any credible effort to reason through the possible consequences, is of course very alarming.

As a US citizen, I'll admit that the "gravitas" of the USA as the "leader of the free world" was always carefully stage-managed. Still, it's depressing to watch momentous and crucial international wartime negotiations degraded to this reality-TV/pro-wrestling level, and so swiftly, for the whole world to watch.

[1]: https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5169464-trump-ze...

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