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El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

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Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#741
post #707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that’s true. We invest in a lot of things, hoping for future value. But I guess I still treat those differently. I only hold enough USD for upcoming purchases. And I struggle to understand how investing in my marriage is speculative. For a variety of reasons I can’t (or wouldn’t want to) manage that risk like I would in normal speculative investment. I can’t hedge, size up, size down. So I think I’m missing som…

In my POV it's all the same since all of them are essentially beliefs with various probabilities. You don't know what will happen in any of the cases. You just choose to believe one more over the other based on what has happened in the past.

I think that's right. At some level, any anticipation of a future state has to be measurable in some kind of confidence level.

I suppose where I get lost is that, at least subjectively, I end up treating different anticipated return distributions differently. I want a mixture of risks, both in terms of their covariance and the absolute properties.

When I think of "speculation", I am intentionally shaping only a small portion of my personal portfolio toward high risk, high reward activities. And I only really feel comfortable doing that because a larger fraction of my personal risk is in safer vehicles.

Atop that, I also think a lot about liquidity time bounds. I want access to a reasonable amount of highly-liquid, low-risk investments. I need that flexibility to be safe in the event that I need to buy something.

To my eye at least, I qualitatively differentiate between speculative investments and these liquid/low risk ones. If I felt I only had one kind of risk, I would seek out the other in some proportion.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s around 100k USD apiece, +875% in the last 5y, +340% over last 2y, +130% over last 1y… I’d also qualify this as “not quite crashed yet” I dont know what the future hodls but it’s looking pretty good for bitcoin so far

>I dont know what the future hodls but it’s looking pretty good for bitcoin so far The future always looks good right before a crash. You really don't want a currency as unstable as bitcoin as your legal ledger. we would have had 2 crashes already in this decade alone: the obvious 2020 dip and the dip in 2023. All the DOGE/Trump shennaigans + the investigation on the Hawk Tuah coin will probably crash it again late t…

"the lightbulb is always brightest right before it burns out"

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not giving up on Bitcoin. In fact, it's likely that they'll use the loan to buy more Bitcoin. https://www.reuters.com/markets/currencies/el-salvadors-bitc...

Who are they possible gonna offload that bitcoin on to? Their neighbor? That doesn't strike me as a socially acceptable thing to do.

There's a deep and liquid market for Bitcoin - El Salvador isn't even a major holder in the grand scheme of things. I don't see what's socially unacceptable about selling Bitcoin to a willing buyer; it's simply a transaction between two parties, no different from trading foreign currency like USD. There's also no indication that they plan to spend or trade their Bitcoin anytime soon.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#744
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble is, it needs to be more than that if it is to survive. Since inception, mining has mostly been subsidized by new bitcoin, which is capped by design (and about 95% distributed). Satoshi’s paper assumed that transaction costs would make up for the exponentially declining subsidy, but that hasn’t really happened since it never lived up to his “digital cash” vision.

Ethereum solves both of these issues. It is an entire platform designed for the development of distributed applications and will probably win over BTC in the long-long-term.

No. Ethereum is a solution searching for a problem. Have you seen any widely used successful application developed using Ethereum?

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

deflation is fine for an economy. inflation is disastrous for an economy. the people in charge of the money printers are trying to keep you confused. don’t buy it.

LOL I have $1,000. I believe that tomorrow, my $1,000 will be worth $2,000. Why would I ever spend my money? Hence, economy freezes. This is so plainly obvious to everyone except crypto zealots I literally gasped seeing your comment.

Because I need to buy food, clothes, pay rent, and replace my laptop that just died.

And I need to do this today or i’ll starve on the street.

I could delay buying a new laptop, but that’s a personal preference. I still need one at some point.

That’s why I would spend my money, because there are things I need or want.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#746
post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you need to go to the IMF for a loan of ~3% of your GDP to mitigate the risks associated with Bitcoin, well, that's a pretty good sign that adopting Bitcoin as legal tender was a pretty disastrous failure.

The loan was not to mitigate the risk of the Bitcoin. They needed the loan for reasons. The IMF deemed the high involvement in Bitcoin risky for the loan. The IMF text has a "meanwhile": https://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/2024/12/18/pr-24485-el-...

> They needed the loan for reasons.

One of them being that El Salvador lost affordable access to the international bond market for a good part of the past years due to higher country investment risk, there were multiple reasons for that that are too long for one comment.

Some for the consequences have been:

The government switched to funding their bonds locally, including a good chunk of the local banks deposits which then the banks had to refinance to a longer longer term.

The government has been taking a good chunk of the pension funds with no interest paid back. Few details about this deal are available because the pension fund administrators and government supervisors have stopped publishing most of the financial reports for months.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#747

IMF gave them 1.4 billion to abandon the “experiment”: > The IMF made this a condition for a loan of 1.4 billion US dollars (1.35 billion euros). In December of last year, the IMF reached an agreement with President Nayib Bukele’s government on the loan of the stated amount to strengthen the country’s “fiscal sustainability” and mitigate the “risks associated with Bitcoin,” as it was described. —- I dislike cryptocur…

Despite that interference, from everything I’ve read though it’s hard to describe the bitcoin experiment as anything else than a massive failure…

>President Nayib Bukele’s government has accumulated 5,900 BTC, achieving profits of $333.59 million from an initial $269.74 million investment, fuelled by Bitcoin’s recent surge past $100,000. (dec 2024)

I wish I could have a $333m failure like that.

(edit - see also his approval rating - 91% https://x.com/stats_feed/status/1875573928250179666)

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#748
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like a fair take to me. They are not forcing people to accept it anymore because it didn’t work. It was never supposed to work. Bitcoin tried for 15-20 years to find a use case but now it’s just an asset class like gold and nothing else, it will never be more than that.

> asset class like gold and nothing else, it will never be more than that Lol, gold that can be teleported around the globe for fractions of a cent, yeah.. it sucks that bitcoin will never be more than that.

The transaction fee is currently $1.64 and frequently spikes to tens of dollars. (Yes, sometimes LN can reduce that.) You can buy gold via something like $GLD for free.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#749
post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, what I'm about is really the same, just the other way round. Countries usually erase zeroes after hyperinflation adds them, cryptocoins can just add extra zeroes due to deflation. No change in value, just higher granularity. The rest left me puzzled, can you elaborate? Why should the money holder do anything productive? Why getting richer and richer becomes something bad when we go crypto?

> Why getting richer and richer becomes something bad when we go crypto? Is that sarcasm? It discourages any type of economic activity. Why would someone invest into or try to start a business when you can become richer by just sitting on your money pile with no risk. Artificially constricting the supply of money in a non static economy is a bad idea. Like the gold standard just much worse.

Because starting a business might still lead to higher returns for you than hoping that your money will be worth more.

One thing i’ve always wondered: If something like Bitcoin was the only currency, then it would be like a direct mapping of 21 Million Bitcoin all global economic activity and goods and services. In that case, shouldn’t its price be relatively stable, and might actually even go down sometimes? Like in big natural disasters increasing the cost of certain goods?

I’m not a crypto zealot, but I’m not a big believer in the idea that the economy needs to be stimulated and I need to be forced to spend my money before it loses its value. I just want to buy what I need or really want.

And in the hypothetical case of having a mapping of “all economic activity” “21M payment units”, then the relative stability of this money might still make investments more lucrative than just hoping for my money to be worth slightly more tomorrow. In this hypothetical scenario it would be more like “my money is worth 1000 eggs today, next month it might be 1001 (if others grow the economy) or 999 (if something unforeseen happens halfway across the globe). So if an investment looks like it might yield the value of 1100 eggs there would still be people to take the risk of investing, no?

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#750

IMF gave them 1.4 billion to abandon the “experiment”: > The IMF made this a condition for a loan of 1.4 billion US dollars (1.35 billion euros). In December of last year, the IMF reached an agreement with President Nayib Bukele’s government on the loan of the stated amount to strengthen the country’s “fiscal sustainability” and mitigate the “risks associated with Bitcoin,” as it was described. —- I dislike cryptocur…

> I dislike cryptocurrencies as much as the next guy Is this really the general sentiment on HN?

It probably is the general sentiment. Though I quite like them - it's like a new art form almost.
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