Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war • Hacker News Board

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#741

Post by GordonS » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 2:06 PM UTC

gataca wrote: post #692

GordonS wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Setting aside the fact that these are numbers provided by Hamas The UN and Lancet [0] believe the numbers are credible. Let's not forget there are likely 10k+ civilians still burried under rubble too. > Hamas has miles of tunnels to provide cover for their rapists Come on, you are not commenting in good faith. There is zero credible evidence that any rape took place, Hamas have staunchly denied it, and from what re…

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There are no confirmed accounts of rape, and the NYT Hamas hit piece that is re-laundered daily by the MSM has signs (such as Anat Schwarz) of Israeli intelligence all over it.

Regarding the UN report, it is not the smoking gun you seen to think it is, though I can see why you'd think differently if you only read the "highlights" from MSM - go ahead and read the report [0]:

> As a result of the aforementioned challenges, it must be noted that the information gathered by the mission team was in a large part sourced from Israeli national institutions. This is due to the absence of United Nations entities operating in Israel, as well as the lack of cooperation by the State of Israel with relevant United Nations bodies with an investigative mandate

Pramila Patten didn't "investigate" anything; she previously said on this: "It's not my role to investigate" - her job was to repeat what the Israelis told her. While in Israel she even met with proven hoaxers from Zaka, the organisation responsible for spreading many of the putrid attrocity propaganda that came out at the start.

Pramila Patten also infamously made the incredible, unsubstantiated claim that Russia gave their soldiers viagra and sent them out to rape Ukranains. She's a well-known fraud [1], who now sits in a position created by Hilary Clinton - who herself infamously spread false rape propaganda about Libya.

I feel we are now at an impasse, and so I won't be engaging in this thread any further.

[0] https://news.un.org/en/sites/news.un.org.en/files/atoms/file...

[1] https://thegrayzone.com/2022/11/13/un-envoy-fabricating-viag...

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#742

Post by hef19898 » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 2:08 PM UTC

bennyz wrote: post #736

hef19898 wrote: post #674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Way, way back there was an IDF officer who said, in TV, after having a Palestinian boys arm broken something along the lines of "he wont throw a stone with that arm any time soon". I hope that this is not the standard we hold, because if it is, there is no moral ground anymore to stand on when it comes to denouncing terrorism.

Police brutality isn't something specific to this region (IDF is policing in the west bank), or to Palestinians in the region. Hamas murdered and kidnapped hundreds of civilians to protest this? I think it's pretty clear that Hamas would prioritize the release of a high ranking terrorist with civilian blood on their hands over someone that may be wrongfully detained.

Yes, Hamas attacked, killed and kidnapped people in a terror attack to protest this. Also to have hostages to exchange for some of their own. And yes, these "own" are Hamas members and not the innocent bystanders. Was there ever any doubt about this?

None of that justifies, again, the levelling of Gaza, the starving of around 500,000 people and the deliberate targeting of civilians who have nothing to do with any of that.

You what works? Identifying the purpetrators, prosecuting and convicting them. If you want to go ultra tough, use Mossad to go after Hamas leadership. Heck, even using precision strikes at Hamas leadership in Gaza wouod be better, regardless of the related colleteral damage and casualties. Israel is not doing any of that, Israel started levelling Gaza right south of the border and continue southwards, hoping people flee to Egypt which would allow Israel to close the doors behind them. There is a term for this: ethnic cleansing. That is undefensible, period.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#743

Post by incognos » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 2:08 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #713

incognos wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, Hamas's charter states that it's issue is with the Zionist Project and not Jews. They specifically speak about coexistence, albeit in a single entity called Palestine. There is not language to exclude other ethnicities or religions, only to remove the colonialist movement referred to as Zionism - which is not Judaism.

> FWIW, Hamas's charter states that it's issue is with the Zionist Project and not Jews. Oh yes! Still, that's an untenable position. Israel was created so that all Jews could have a state of their own because of the suffering inflicted upon them. There really is no going back on that. For me, a single democratic and secular state, with a legal framework that protects everybody's rights equally and fairly would be th…

FWIW, Palestine was a country made up of multiple ethnicities and religions. The official languages were Arabic, English and Hebrew. Jews made up 1.7% of the total population at the time. More and more of them were arriving from Europe to live there.

What ruined everything was the Zionist project, which funded land purchases for farms and then only allowed Jews to work on those farms. Essentially, excluding the majority muslim and christian population from an equal opportunity to work.

These exclusionary measure created tension which resulted in the armed and terroristic attacks by the Zionist groups the Stern Gang and Irgun. (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Stern-Gang)

So yes, they could have lived in peace and were living in peace, but Zionism...

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#744

Post by incognos » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 2:11 PM UTC

wesselbindt wrote: post #678

drc500free wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an interesting and delicate conversation about how a twenty-something engineer in the military ends up frequenting anti-military and anti-democracy subreddits. I think that fits in with hn. There is another interesting and delicate conversation about what that person thought about Gaza and about Israeli Jews, and where those ideas came from. He posted on Reddit that Hamas's stated intent to destroy Israel -…

> Hamas's claims that 30k people have died That's not just Hamas's claim, that's the UN's claim, Amnesty international has this claim. There's plenty of independent thirds parties which hold this claim. The same cannot be said for the 12k militants claim, for which the idf has supplied no evidence, and is not repeated by independent third parties. And beyond that, I don't think the belief that killing 1% of a populat…

Even the IDF uses those numbers. The number is likely much higher as it does not take into account those buried under the rubble - which cannot be reached without proper equipment.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#745

Post by GordonS » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 2:11 PM UTC

jncfhnb wrote: post #734

GordonS wrote: post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the staggering scale of tunnels that have been built to funnel military supplies through civilians areas; clearing operations to destroy these areas entirely feels defensible "clearing operations" for tunnels involves heavy bombing above ground, which will kill civilians and destroy civilian homes and infrastructure - there is nothing "defensible" about that. Also, many tunnels are supposedly used for civilian smug…

Clearing operations have largely been bulldozers, not leveling an area with bombs. Yes, it does suck for the civilians. Yes there is immense collateral damage. What would you do differently when you know terrorists funded by a hostile third party have an extensive tunnel network though? I’m sorry but you cannot allow it to exist. You have to destroy it. There exact purposes of the hospital lairs used by Hamas are unc…

> What would you do differently

Not knowingly massacre civilians? If they supposedly have 10 million miles of tunnels (or whatever the IDF claims), then the very idea of taking out tunnels is pointless anyway.

Hamas aren't some random terrorists, they are a resistance to occupation with a clear goal - if I was Israel, I would respect international law, remove myself from occupied territories, and recognise an independant Palestinian state. Alongside, I'd be figuring out how to deradicalise my population.

> There exact purposes of the hospital lairs used by Hamas are unclear but they’re indisputably there

No, there is much to dispute! For starters, I haven't seen any evidence whatsoever that Hamas have "hospital lairs". Except of course for the preposterous IDF 3D rendering of Al Shifa.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#746

Post by hef19898 » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 2:12 PM UTC

gryzzly wrote: post #738

hef19898 wrote: post #719

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If peopel are properly, as in a proper, fair and unbiased trial, based on equally fair and balanced laws, convicted, sure, you are right. Holding people without charges is defenitely not that. If it were, whatever Russia is doing with people opposing the war Ukraine would totally swell as well. And it isn't. You onw what else kills people, and is illegal by international law? Throwing bombs on civilians. Espesially i…

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Sometimes I wished HN had an "ignore user" button.

Basically everytjing in your wall of text is either wrong or so turned on its head and misunderstood it could as well be wrong.

The key word you don't seem to understand is this: proportinality.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#747

Post by incognos » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 2:13 PM UTC

Auracle wrote: post #450

boringg wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be true but a couple things have changed since those very dated sample points. (1) Definition of journalist (2) quantity of journalists (3) willingness to be on the very front lines in order to get better stories (4) technology enabling journalists thus being able to be more dangerous spots. (5) speculation -> journalists who are using press credentials as cover I'm neither way on the conflict but want to co…

You also forgot (6) fighting a force that doesn't wear uniforms.

They do... the qassam brigades (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=qassam+brigades&atb=v340-1&iax=ima...)

Besides, not sure Israel would allow them to import the uniforms.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#748

Post by reducesuffering » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 2:15 PM UTC

incognos wrote: post #729

reducesuffering wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened to “believe women?” You think in a sudden 1143 person civilian homicidal attack, going door to door, no rape happened? “UN team says rape, gang rape likely occurred during Hamas attack on Israel” UN: “The mission team received clear and convincing information that sexual violence, including rape, sexualized torture, and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment occurred against some women and children duri…

Where is your outrage for the ongoing rapes prior to october 7th and continuing to this day. ( https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/22/claims-of-isra... )

I abhor any rapes perpetuated against humans of any kind. Why are you deflecting my correction that GP’s “There is zero credible evidence that any rape took place” is wrong?

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#749

Post by reducesuffering » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 2:17 PM UTC

GordonS wrote: post #741

gataca wrote: post #692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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There are no confirmed accounts of rape, and the NYT Hamas hit piece that is re-laundered daily by the MSM has signs (such as Anat Schwarz) of Israeli intelligence all over it. Regarding the UN report, it is not the smoking gun you seen to think it is, though I can see why you'd think differently if you only read the "highlights" from MSM - go ahead and read the report [0]: > As a result of the aforementioned challen…

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Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#750

Post by incognos » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 2:18 PM UTC

shiroiushi wrote: post #486

tsimionescu wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the IRA was periodically attacking UK institutions and killing civilians, did the UK feel entitled to level Belfast and say that the IRA is to blame? This war in Palestine is much closer to a civil war than to any country-to-country combat, especially since Palestine is simply not an independent country. Since Israel is in control of the Gaza strip for 50+ years (explicit military control till the 2005, still in…

Northern Ireland/UK was not similar to Gaza/Israel at all. The UK was always Northern Ireland's government and controlled all state functions. A better comparison is Mainland China/Taiwan: according to various outsiders, the two are the same country supposedly, but in reality they function as two different states, with entirely separate governments. The main difference between these situations (aside from Taiwan bein…

To the contrary, they want Gaza for the 500 billion dollar natural gas field which is in it's international waters - this would turn Palestine into another Qatar.

- https://iacenter.org/2023/11/15/behind-israels-end-game-for-...

- https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/israel-gives-nod-gaz...

- https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/6/21/palestines-forg...

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