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Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

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Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So people should not have the option of paying less of paying less for less features? Everyone must pay for features that only a subset of customers use? You make a common argument that's deceptively anti-consumer. Yes, this can be abused - but that's a different argument.

If they sell you a car with heated seats, you should have heated seats. They already sold you the heated seats, you already have the heated seats, and they just want more money for something they already got money for, and you already have.

But they didn't get money for it. They get money for it from the people who enable it. If they didn't get money from people paying for it the effective cost of manufacturing the car they sold you would go up (and they may need to raise the price they charged you to cover it).

Imagine that 1/2 of the owners want heated seats. It is more cost effective to just install the hardware in every car rather than creating a new production line. These owners now need to pay 2x the raw cost of installing the seats (because they need to cover the cost of installing the hardware in the car that won't purchase it) in order to cover the cost (and of course there is some profit margin on top). But this can still be much cheaper than the extra overhead of setting up a second production line. But in this model the price of the car that didn't pay for the seats hasn't changed. The cost increase is covered by those who do pay for the seats. Making two separate production lines would raise the cost (of both models) for no benefit. Adding the feature to all cars would necessitate raising the price for the base (and only) model to cover the additional manufacturing cost.

(Ok, money is fungible so it is a little hard to say anything for certain, but in theory it is rational and fair)

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So people should not have the option of paying less of paying less for less features? Everyone must pay for features that only a subset of customers use? You make a common argument that's deceptively anti-consumer. Yes, this can be abused - but that's a different argument.

>So people should not have the option of paying less of paying less for less features? They should, it's called buying a different car without those features installed. >Everyone must pay for features that only a subset of customers use? You are already paying for those features upfront as part of buying the car - there is no recurring expense to the manufacturer. If you do not want or are unable to pay for those fea…

But this would simply result in both groups paying more for no benefit. Due to less volume both models would end up costing more.

I do agree that making this a subscription is ridiculous, especially such an expensive subscription. But I think making two models of car and raising the price for everyone is illogical.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#743

Seeing this gives me the same warm, fuzzy feeling I had when I jailbroke my first iPhone to gain features that were impossible otherwise. I wonder if Tesla will start using physical one-shot fuse bits buried deep in hard-to-access components (eg. hardwire a heater control relay open in the final programming step at the factory) to make these type of attacks more difficult. Of course that would preclude up-selling the…

I think it's all about the possibility to later upsell. I don't think the economics work out where it's cheaper to install something like a seat heater in every car and permanently disable for price discrimination purposes (the way you might for e.g. a CPU). My brain can kind of rationalize this as "it makes the up-front price lower, and you can add features to your car without even visiting a dealer", but my heart d…

I agree that it feels really wrong but I don't think it is actually unethical to lock features like this. (Although the way the locks are implemented may be unethical.)

It allows making multiple logical models with a single production line. This lowers the cost and in theory that is valuable to consumers. I imagine that if there was no ability to "upgrade" later this wouldn't even be news. Consumers would just see it as a base model and a premium model, and Tesla found a very cost effective way to provide two models of car. Or four models if you count self-driving.

But upgrading later is actually valuable. Why not let someone add features as their budget allows? It does "expose" that these are only software locks but I think that is actually fine. In theory it is just the people who purchase the premium upgrades that are paying for these features in all cars. It shouldn't necessarily affect the price of the base model and you aren't really paying for the feature unless you purchase the upgrade.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kinda get it. Rather than maintaining a supply of multiple parts which complicates your supply chain and install/repair procedures, Tesla is making cars nearly 100% identical physically and differentiating in software.

And getting the suckers who pay up to cover the cost for all vehicles having it.

Those suckers are getting a much better deal than if they had to pay the cost of an alternate production line and logistics flow.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#745
post #2

Good. People who buy things should own the things they buy.

Arguably you didn't buy it. Sure you physically own the hardware but you didn't pay for it.

Depending on how you look at it the hardware was paid for by:

1. Tesla as a "marketing" expense. They expect that the $50 of hardware will make a significant number of people pay $500 for the feature. If 1/5 people upgrade that is an expected return of $100 for that $50 marketing cost.

2. The people who purchase the heated seat upgrade. It was more cost effective to install the hardware in all cars than to set up a second production line. So if 1/5 people buy this package their effective cost is $250 ($50 * 5 cars) and $250 is Tesla's buffer + profit margin. So the people who pay for this package effectively pay for the hardware in all cars.

If you enable this feature for all users both of these no longer exist. So the effective cost goes up which would likely raise the price. (Yes, I know that cost and price aren't directly related).

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is identical to 5, in my view. Its not licensed. Is anyone upset that if you download a version of software that has a "basic" and a "premium" version, but the premium costs more money, that you don't get the premium functionality? Just like you "can't change" whether you get premium functions if you don't pay for it, the same could be said for fsd or seat heaters.

I disagree with the premise of locking someone out of something they physically own. You HAVE the seat heater in your car, the wiring works, you just aren't allowed to turn it on. I don't see this as the same as a basic vs premium version of a piece of software. The person owning the car owns the heater, the car, the wiring, they have to pay the miniscule extra cost of carrying that hardware around in their car. If T…

You HAVE the code for the premium software. It exists. The code all works. You downloaded it when you downloaded the basic package. You pay the minuscule extra cost of downloading and installing the extra code you don't use.

That argument doesn't hold up. Nobody should claim they are entitled to the premium features if they only have the basic license/software.

I agree that I don't want death by a thousand subscription fees, but this isn't exactly the same situation here. BMW's offerings is. Frankly, if BMW offered it with only the one-time charge, I'd consider it similar.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this work with their charging network? Are you still able to use their chargers, or are you stuck with home charging & third parties?

Oh no, don't give them ideas. It'll become the HP instant ink of car charging

Your L2 charging wire is low on copper, please replace the entire cable.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with the premise of locking someone out of something they physically own. You HAVE the seat heater in your car, the wiring works, you just aren't allowed to turn it on. I don't see this as the same as a basic vs premium version of a piece of software. The person owning the car owns the heater, the car, the wiring, they have to pay the miniscule extra cost of carrying that hardware around in their car. If T…

You HAVE the code for the premium software. It exists. The code all works. You downloaded it when you downloaded the basic package. You pay the minuscule extra cost of downloading and installing the extra code you don't use. That argument doesn't hold up. Nobody should claim they are entitled to the premium features if they only have the basic license/software. I agree that I don't want death by a thousand subscripti…

>You pay the minuscule extra cost of downloading and installing the extra code you don't use.

This really is where I have the issue. If I have to pay for my ISP to allow me to access the internet and use my bandwidth to download it, my power bill to allow my PC to install it, use up my storage space to host the software, then I should be able to do whatever I want to/with it and you shouldn't hinder me from doing so.

If I have to pay a fee for premium, and then additional components are downloaded and installed, fair game.

I wonder if there's any law that covers such a scenario, aside from EULA allowing the software dev to do what they want as long as the user agrees.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#749
post #538
post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you're joking, but there's a whole genre of "adversarial fashion"[0][1] dedicated to making clothing that spams these sort of public data recognition services. Hoodies with license plates, face masks with weird facial features, etc. Often optimized against actual neural networks too [0] https://adversarialfashion.com/ [1] https://www.capable.design/

Gait detection renders any of this obsolute sadly.

snake oil

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And because the impact is exponentially larger. Arguments for regulation prohibiting individuals from tinkering with their cars does no such thing, because those laws are not currently in place, and there is not an epidemic of runaway user-modified vehicles. On the other hand, such regulation would serve to prevent users from enjoying the property they purchased and to facilitate exploitative practices by manufacture…

It really depends what you are modifying. By all means have a custom entertainment system and I detest the software locked features such as heated seats. If you are messing with safety critical software then it is no help to me that you are prosecuted for negligence if I am killed. Even if your safety critical software works it still is negligent, there should be some barrier to entry for such software. It shouldn't…

Do you think you should be allowed to change your brake pads? How about bleed your brake lines?
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