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Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars
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Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars
#742I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…
As a former chicago resident who lived near a station, that wasn't my experience. In the time it took to walk down to the station and wait to get onto a train, I could already be at most restaurants and stores if I used a car in the suburbs. Also groceries became a huge ordeal. There's a lot of time overhead with public transit and unfortunately subways attract a lot of sketchy beggars and rude folk.
I would pay any amount of money or spend any amount of time to not have to deal with a car in Chicago ever again. Traffic, parking, and inflexibility to just hop on a train or bus are killer.
Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars
#743The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…
> The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. Have you compared to how things used to be? These numbers all seem to assume that it used to be much cheaper relative to income. That seems like a rosy look at the past but the numbers don't support that assumption. Yes it would be dumb for a youn…
>But the basic beater cars and new Toyota/Mazda/Honda/Kia-level cars are about as affordable as they ever were.
In the past 3 years they've gone up an extraordinary amount, so I have some doubts on that.
I was a teenager in the 90s and would help out at a friend of my dads car lot. As a benefit they'd let me get first grab at the 'cheap beaters' that came in the lot, and before I even had a drivers license I had bought and sold around 20 cars. Things are significantly different now when looking back. First is inspections/insurance. Most of those cheap beaters back then you could buy would be in no way road legal now. At best they are parts, or you're spending thousands getting to the point of passing inspection.
Then you add in Craigslist, which is also a major change in how car buying works. Don't think of this as significantly different than how GPUs were scalped during the pandemic. There are numerous individuals that watch the common digital markets where cars are posted and quickly buy up any cheap deals, and turn them out for thousands more on a lot.
Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars
#744I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…
Yep.. something about setting out in to the unknown, a battered paper map as your guide, and the combination of surprise and lack of accountability (doesn't perfectly describe what I mean, but I can't find a better word) you'd get in return. It was possible to do that before cars, but mass car ownership & a modern road network made it something the average consumer could do semi-routinely, instead of something that r…
Yet now, to me, public transit is the way to venture out into that unknown. Finding out a cool new place along a route you use, or even trying out a new route and seeing what it gets you. That's been super enjoyable. With cars I only have time to go to things that I already know about. I can't look around well enough while paying attention to the road. If I'm on a bus I can see something cool and hop off and go check it out
Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars
#745I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…
I don't think we'll have a choice on whether or not to remove car dependence in our infrastructure. They are just outright not affordable on the scale that we are using them to. We were able to keep it up this long but I have no expectation that it will be able to continue how it has. And the result of that combined with the complete dependence on them are going to make things very ugly for quite some time.
Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars
#746Earlier quoted context omitted.
In a time where half of the US can't afford a $1000 emergency...
Yeah, half the country wont be buying new cars. Buying used is normal.
Currently used cars are 'that' significantly cheaper than new. Add in things like interest rates on used being higher than new, and that new cars typically have very long warranties on major components and we're suddenly into the 'Boots Theory' of Socioeconomic Unfairness.
Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars
#747Earlier quoted context omitted.
I mean 50s and 60s (and, to some degree, 70s) cars. Modern cars are taller but there were some absolute boats back then, and they weren't uncommon. And they felt huge on the inside. All but the largest of big-ass SUVs don't feel as big as they did, when you're actually in them. [EDIT] And even with the added height, the view from a truck or SUV sucks compared to those old cars. The only modern car I've been in the co…
I think you're partly talking about the side effects of safety changes. An older car could feel like a "green house" with lots of glass and small frames. The cabin was also less protected, so the volume of empty space inside was closer to the volume of the outer skin of that section of the car. Thin doors, not much between you and the engine compartment firewall, wheel wells, etc. But I also wonder if you were a kid…
Oh, yeah, it's a combination of safety changes and shape-optimization for fuel efficiency. I didn't say it was bad, just that it's less-pleasant to go on a lazy Sunday drive in a modern car than it was in cars back when taking an aimless drive was a fairly common leisure activity.
I've been in some of those older cars more recently and yeah, they're just big and feel very open—and, anyway, these cars' being common pre-dates my childhood; though, even my sporty late-90s high school sedan felt more open than newer cars, because it was, due to all those safety changes—better visibility, less of a feeling of the car's interior trying to crush in toward you—and it wasn't a spacious-interior car for the time.
Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars
#748Earlier quoted context omitted.
My wife and I have friends who can't get their children to learn to drive despite cars being available to them with gas and maintenance paid by their parents.
Owning a car/not owning a car is to at least some degree an economic decision. But I literally could not have done my first job without being able to drive to job sites. And I couldn't really have worked at the next company in an office park either. To say nothing of countless recreational activities and vacations I've done that required me to drive. I've spoken to friends with teenagers and they've told me their kid…
If a job requires you to drive between many places with your own vehicle you are effectively taking a pay cut. They are offloading the costs of their job onto you.
To me your statement logically is worded something like: "I require a car because I require a car"
Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars
#749Earlier quoted context omitted.
Public transit strikes and system breakdowns happen occasionally, nothing to do with the end of civilization. Not being able to drive really limits your options, especially if you want to travel to remote locations for business or leisure. Knowing how it drive is just a basic life skill for any adult. It's something everyone should know how to do like being able to cook a meal or rewire an electrical outlet or shoot…
> drive or cook a meal or rewire an electrical outlet or shoot a gun or splint a broken limb None of those except cooking are in any way "basic life skills". Least of all shooting a gun.
It's sad if you really believe that. Too many people in the tech industry have led such sheltered lives that they lack perspective on what happens in the real world. At a bare minimum every adult should know how to unload and render safe a firearm.
Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars
#750The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…
> Okay, so what about used cars? The average used car price in the U.S. is now over $28K (KBB). That's more than I've ever paid for any new car I've ever bought! That's more than I've spent on buying, taxing, insuring, MOTing, and repairing every car I have owned since I passed my driving test nearly 30 years ago. We live in an age of ubiquitous information. It has never been easier to learn how to repair things. Why…
It's really easy to have that perspective if you already have the knowledge and wealth to do so. Right now it's winter and there is melted slushy ice everywhere. I only have street parking available where I live. My car is a cheap rusted pile of crap because that's what was affordable. It's not feasible for me to maintain my life while also going out on the street and trying to learn how to fix whatever issue went wrong (while dealing with the rust on top of it). I happen to be luckier than many people as well. My car is constantly stealing my money from me and the only reason I even can make it work is getting cheap (free) mechanical labor due to family.