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Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#741

Post by willcipriano »

goodpoint wrote: post #610
willcipriano wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know they don't care about it. That's the point. They don't care about it but they do it, because it's socially expected that they do it, because it's mainstream. If being green was counterculture, greenwashing would have the opposite of the intended effect.

So co-opting something and making it truly mainstream is the same thing? Then greenwhashing is real ecology?

As a corporation why would you co-opt something that the public in general isn't on board for? Ask several people on the street "Should companies be more green?" and they will mostly say yes, as that is a mainstream idea. If you wanted to be counter culture you could start a company that isn't green, "We pollute ten times what our competition does!", lots of people out in the culture would be very upset, they would protest, that's what being counter to the culture is like.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#742

Post by wellthisisgreat »

narrator wrote: post #509
jjk166 wrote: post #484

If you only consume mainstream media then you may personally live in a society which lacks a counterculture. You strike up a conversation with the girl picking mushrooms in the middle of nowhere or you go to an underground death metal concert or spend a bit of time on 4chan and you'll find countercultures alive and well that you're just not part of. If you think a sense of sameness pervades the creative world then yo…

The way you know 4chan is the counterculture is every time someone releases a new generative art tool, 4chan figures out a way to do stuff with it that makes the creators have to restrict and/or shut it down. Like in the 1960s how the mainstream culture would whisper under their breath and point in shock and horror at hippies and try to get them banned from various public venues, and send mobs to beat them up, we hav…

> generally anti-ukraine war

Forgive my ignorance, but do you mean 4Chan is against the war in Ukraine in principle (anti-war), sides with Russia in that conflict (anti-Ukraine) or against US/West involvement in that war (anti-war but with a catch).

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#743

Post by asveikau »

rootusrootus wrote: post #470
asveikau wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might get downvotes because you've just said it in a very ridiculous way that indicates you're angry about it. I think there's a valid point lurking there, but you botched it. Surely you appreciate that multiple things can be true at the same time, and there are numerous ways that white men have advantages still.

> you're angry about it Why is it okay for one side to be angry, but not the other? This is such a commonly used accusation to deflate someone else's point. Making them seem emotional, and therefore illogical. FWIW, I don't think the person you're replying to looks even a little bit angry in that post. The point of view seems well considered.

I think the anger is coming out in over the top descriptions of white males as targets of some kind of cultural conspiracy, or talking about laughing at queer folk because they're not persecuted like unapologetic straight white men ... Those are some pretty odd conclusions that he seems to have wandered into emotionally, and it's hard to think there isn't some hostility there, otherwise why bother saying all this?

If you think he sounds neutral, unaffected, rational, I wonder if it's just that you already agree with him.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#744

Post by oneplane »

sjducb wrote: post #675
koprulusector wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war. The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discov…

You can easily make the same case about 4 Chan. 4 Chan is rooted in things that are objectively good: free thought, satire and not taking anything too seriously.

If only 4chan were rooted in those things. Sadly, it is rooted in only one thing: anonymised extremes. While you can stack other things on top of that, those are offshoots rather than the roots.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#745

Post by Nasrudith »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #678
leshow wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a misunderstanding of the current situation. The demands were varied, but common ask was _not_ just a reduction in policing paired with a ballooning police budget. Ironically, the "defund" movement ended up causing an even more reactionary movement such that police actually got more funding. Protesters wanted to re-allocate resources away from the police towards other services, so that cops are not the f…

Society did not get abruptly and dramatically unequal between 2013 and 2015 nor between 2019 and 2020. Socioeconomics doesn’t predict these crime surges. Richard Rosenfeld speaking to The Guardian: “The only explanation that gets the timing right is a version of the Ferguson Effect” Vox reporting on Travis Campbell’s research: “Campbell’s research indicates that these protests correlate with a 10% increase in murders…

Of course they're being silly if they decide the mere discussion of holding criminals accountable is responsible for a rise in crime, just because said criminals happen to be wearing blue.

The solution is obvious. Start rolling heads of Police Chiefs until they get their hierarchies of people in line. If it ends with the entire police union fired so be it, insubordinate lawless police are worse than useless.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#746

Post by notch898a »

germinalphrase wrote: post #727
Taywee wrote: post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It happens to the best of us. Personally, I don't think 30 is all that old, but I am cranky. I also don't think there's a "getting out of touch" aspect of holding the opinion that silly stupidity is not the same thing as angry paranoia.

You’re a old young person, but you’ll be a young old person soon enough.

IMO having a kid is the cutoff between old young and young old.

Have a kid and the walls move in fast. Used to live in alternative shelters, backpacking in the outdoors for months on end? Yeah child services says that's substandard housing and abuse. Hell there were child abuse investigation just for a family backpacking the Appalachian trail, and that's a boring ass well planned thing that even old square fuckers can relate to.

Used to psychedelics or other drugs? Yeah the kid is trained at a very young age by police officers at the school to snitch you out, and they get them young enough they won't have a filter. DCS and/or criminal charges incoming.

Used to go overseas and do super dangerous stuff? Suddenly any family or friends that tolerated that say you're a piece of shit for risking your when a kid relies on you and the judge is gonna say even if you earn enough doing that to support the kid it's still not enough because the kid needs 20% of the imputed income you could make as a conservative working stiff no matter if they were fine before during the times you were making less, don't agree well then off to jail.

Your life is surrounded now by mandatory reporters. The doctor, the teacher, the therapist. Yeah, all mandatory reporters. Say something they don't like as a child-free and nobody gives a shit. Have a kid, fuck nah their alternative views are signs of abuse. Send in the investigators and let them sort it out.

And the people making these judgement calls are judges, lawyers, DCS workers. People plugged into the system. Not necessarily politically conservative but conditioned to fall within the norms of the system. Hell even SBF (the guy that never wears a suit even for billion dollar investment meetings) wears a suit in front of a judge, that's how conservative that system is.

You learn to keep your mouth shut. You learn to living in the boring ass house that has occupancy certification. You espouse the most boring views that will not anger a mandatory reporter. You diligently pay the taxes the government uses to drone strike brown people ovrseas. You refrain from drugs. You don't take risks that will result in not being able to make 20% of the imputed income you need to stay out of jail. Wait 18 years and you can be old young again.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#747

Post by undersuit »

rngname22 wrote: post #597
undersuit wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LGBTQ isn't a choice, stop peddling this falsehood.

Sexuality seems to not be a choice, but gender expression (which people sort of mentally lump in) can be a choice (obviously gender dysphoria is not a choice, but not all gender expression decisions are made due to the presence of absence of dysphoria).

Expression is a choice, gender or otherwise. Why would one person's expression be any more or less valid than someone else's?

Because it's icky?

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#748

Post by Taywee »

skyyler wrote: post #729
Taywee wrote: post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can look at some old archives: http://yotsubasociety.org/ and https://purl.stanford.edu/tf565pz4260 I'm downloading it now to look. I have a strong feeling that 2007 /v/ will look strikingly different from modern /v/.

I'm sure that it will be different. Dubs guy hadn't given way for Patrick Bateman worship yet. I don't think that it would be any less hateful, though. It's just that most of the hate was ironic early on... There's just this weird thing about how if you perform a ritual ironically, you're still performing the ritual.

That last line reminds me of the old refrain: "Ironic shitposting is still shitposting." Also that old fake Descartes quote: " Any community that gets its laughs by pretending to be idiots will eventually be flooded by actual idiots who mistakenly believe that they're in good company."

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#749

Post by banannaise »

cleandreams wrote: post #553

I am old enough to remember the hippies and related counterculture(s). (I was very young.) This is something to keep in mind: the counterculture then was a place where people made a living. And the cost of living was cheap. You could raise kids on an organic farm, sell in the local alternative stores, have a live show on pirate radio. And pay your modest bills. Health insurance and college tuition was cheap. Jeez --…

It's worth remembering that the hippies and related counterculture(s) became a threat to the status quo (most notably through their opposition to the Vietnam War), and that the War on Drugs was in part a way to criminalize that movement to limit its influence.

The playbook of "criminalize any counterculture that threatens the status quo" is arguably in continuous use now, preventing any countercultural movement from gaining that kind of scale through a combination of negative press and prosecution threats.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#750

Post by bglazer »

narrator wrote: post #509
jjk166 wrote: post #484

If you only consume mainstream media then you may personally live in a society which lacks a counterculture. You strike up a conversation with the girl picking mushrooms in the middle of nowhere or you go to an underground death metal concert or spend a bit of time on 4chan and you'll find countercultures alive and well that you're just not part of. If you think a sense of sameness pervades the creative world then yo…

The way you know 4chan is the counterculture is every time someone releases a new generative art tool, 4chan figures out a way to do stuff with it that makes the creators have to restrict and/or shut it down. Like in the 1960s how the mainstream culture would whisper under their breath and point in shock and horror at hippies and try to get them banned from various public venues, and send mobs to beat them up, we hav…

Being antisocial is not the same thing as being counterculture. There’s not really a flourishing of new ideas or material culture on 4chan, just a race to the bottom of taboo-breaking.
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