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The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

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Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#741

Post by tdudzik »

citrin_ru wrote: post #641
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Europe largely isn't reproducing. Yeah and why is that? Is it because the young are now competing in a zero-sum capitalism squid-game economy, where good jobs are scarce and super stressful to get, requiring you to grind away the most fertile years of your life, and that lawmakers, banks, speculators, foreign buyers and NIMBY boomers have made owning a family home completely unaffordable for the young in most cities…

> Is it because the young are now competing in a zero-sum capitalism > No, it must be porn Both are unlikely explanations given inverse GDP per capita and birth rate correlation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility More plausible explanation - many people don't like children and want to live for themselves but in poor/developing countries they have to 'invest' into children so they will take care of pa…

Maybe people want to live for themselves because having children in the current economy is too exhausting? I'm pretty sure that if people could more easily afford everything what's required for having children they would be more willing to have them. Sure, some people still don't want to have a responsibility but I think plenty of people want children but just can't afford them.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#742

Post by odshoifsdhfs »

tibbydudeza wrote: post #655

But not everybody lives in Lisbon ???. Is all the economic activity concentrated in this city or is it a case of Portuguese professionals working in the city being outpriced by investors for AirBnB ???. Outlying suburbs away from the CBD must be more affordable - why is this not an option ???.

Portugal government really likes centralisation, including closing better performant offices/institutes elsewhere and moving them to Lisbon (and to a smaller extent Porto). This brings whole industries after that require a close connection to these centers.

There is a reason anyone outside Porto/Lisbon here complains that Portugal is only Lisbon/Porto, the rest is scenery. Which to be honest, if we look at the investments made throughout the country, it is quite accurate.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#743

Post by raverbashing »

geocar wrote: post #740
raverbashing wrote: post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't assume I don't know anyone living in Portugal, quite the contrary. Americans are not on the top 10 list of most present nationalities https://eco.sapo.pt/2022/06/23/quase-700-mil-estrangeiros-vi... Apresente fontes portuguesas sobre o assunto e a discussão será mais interessante

> They are not on the top 10 list of most present nationalities So what? Most people don't cause any problems. It is easy to understand Brazilians, and they are working. Most of the EU and Ukrainian immigrants are working and learn the language fast. Do you know who isn't working? Do you know who refuse to learn the language? Who can't even learn to drive in roundabouts? Do you know who is paying for the big expensiv…

> Do you know who isn't working? Do you know who refuse to learn the language?

I have my suspicions yes. And if you're trying to point how Americans (and sometimes the English) are the rudest tourists, most of Europe knows that already. (I mean, even your tone on the comment is proof of that)

> there is the USA (EUA: Estados Unidos da América) right there in second place.

With 100 applicants.

> They're also 25% of new arrivals

Yes, but most of those are visitors (and some Schengen connections)

> understand you have no idea what you're saying just fine in English

Eu sou responsável pelo que eu falo, não pelo outras pessoas entendem. Não preciso de google translate pois sou falante nativo, ao contrário de certos "expats". Eu não estou defendendo americanos, nem falando que não estão se mudando para Portugal, mas uma andorinha só não faz verão. Passar bem.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#744

Post by nemo44x »

_dain_ wrote: post #664
nemo44x wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of materials and labor is really high for most people, not to mention land. And then there’s maintenance. It’s out of reach for most people. Populations are so much larger than they were 100 years ago and people want increasingly large dwellings. I think the tiny home concept makes sense as it’s trailers without the stigma. But yes, we probably need to think of a new type of town built around small propertie…

No, no, no, we don't need a "new type of town" built around some pre-fab gimmick. Literally you just need to lift zoning restrictions (and related bureaucratic crap like discretionary design review) and legalize building things that are slightly-to-moderately more dense than single family home suburban houses. That doesn't mean "dense towers". Suppose you see a man strangling himself, and he wants to know how to get…

Housing is only “affordable” if it’s subsidized. This is because construction and maintenance are out of reach for most people. New housing stock is expensive. Even if you use cheap materials, they need to be replaced in 10 years.

So even if you build multi-family dwellings, the crisis isn’t resolved because the cost of construction, maintenance, and property taxes are out of reach. Unless it is subsidized. The UK is evidence of this. Almost all their housing is multi-family and dense and unit size is small even by European standards. But it’s expensive still. And they keep building.

Japan is a good example of a place where there isn’t a housing crisis and it’s because homes are mainly disposable and very small.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#745

Post by jbirer »

screye wrote: post #363
jonathanstrange wrote: post #97

Yes, the situation is dire. I live in Lisbon as a foreigner for more than 12 years now. We pay a rent for a small flat that used to be very expensive and now is on the cheap side in our quarter of the city. Luckily, we have an older contract that cannot be changed as easily as newer ones. I'm not thrilled by the possibility that our landlord might cancel it some day, however, e.g. for relatives to move in. Rents in t…

Airbnb and uber for all their benefits have taken away a lot of urban planning capabilities of local govts. At the same time, they expose the general unwillingness of local govts to accomodate the need of the population or those who bring in economic value (tourists, transplants). If you are becoming a tourist hub, then create an off-town tourist area and add a convenient transit line/people mover to the central part…

In Bucharest, the city started cracking on AirBNB, the problem is that the landlords are greedy and will risk legal action to get that sweet foreigner money. Not sure how much we can blame the local governments on this one.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#746

Post by tjr225 »

refurb wrote: post #560
tjr225 wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can argue it all you want but the numbers don’t support it. If the demand is going down then why is it becoming more expensive? Also, white flight in the 60s was a move to the suburbs- many would consider that given the density of 2020, the suburbs are feeling the same crunch. Bellevue and other suburbs are more expensive than Seattle. I’m guessing there are suburbs of SF that are more expensive than SF.

Prices are dropping in San Francisco, especially condos which are below pre-Covid prices now. And you yourself said "Bellevue and other suburbs are more expensive than Seattle." Which would infer that yes, people are leaving the city and moving to suburbs.

Bellevue is 5 miles away from Seattle. It is the same thing as Seattle.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#747

Post by tjr225 »

refurb wrote: post #613
mahkeiro wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they are as interest rates are rising quickly. Nobody is talking about it, but free (or almost) money was also a good reason why prices increased that much.

Prices were dropping before interest rates went up.

It is still one of the most expensive and sought after places to live in the country, and maybe even the world. You can’t just remove all context from reality to try to make your points. You know this. Be a big boy.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#748

Post by sashahrzg »

makeitdouble wrote: post #410
jseliger wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We pay a rent for a small flat that used to be very expensive and now is on the cheap side in our quarter of the city Portugal should build more housing, which is a simple, effective solution if the rent is too damn high: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/03/the-ren... . The nice thing about indoor space is that we can make pretty much as much of it as we'd like.

It gives me pause when an obvious action is actively rejected for decades, but still is asserted as a "simple" solution. It might be the _right_ solution, but if it failed to be adopted for so long it can't be that simple, isn't it ?

There is a profit incentive to increase housing prices for developers. Doing something to decrease prices will hurt their bottom line, so they just let the prices rise

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#749

Post by rjzzleep »

mmarq wrote: post #583
rjzzleep wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Germany is a great example at all cause they would rather rent out to a good German girl who's dad has money than to a foreign professional who has a longterm work contract in Germany. I agree that the annoying lifestyle expats are a problem, but bringing up something completely unrelated with a whole host of its own issues is a really weird way to make a point.

Everywhere you prefer to rent to a local than to a foreigner, it’s not a German thing.

Had absolutely no problem with it in the UK, US, or Taiwan. Most places you can just pay in advance to make up for lack of credit history. In Germany it makes you suspicious. So no, it's not everywhere. Given how many expats there are across the globe and given that there is 190+ countries on the planet, I'm not sure that Germany is actually in the majority here.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#750

Post by speakfreely »

lovich wrote: post #202
rootos wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Undocumented immigrants have the same access to public services such as public education, medical care at hospitals, access to court systems, police, fire, etc.

Undocumented immigrants have access to the court system and police that will arrest them the moment they are found to be undocumented? Even if they ostensibly could use it they would avoid taking the risk

This point is about 20 years out of date and is no longer true in most of the country. Most local police, aside from border states, will not inquire about immigration status when dealing with the general population and many larger cities actually refuse to cooperate with ICE immigration detainers on inmates in their local jails for non-violent offenders.
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