California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide • Hacker News Board

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#741

Post by xvilka » Sat, Nov 27, 2021, 4:35 AM UTC

bollu wrote: post #667

xvilka wrote: post #571

With the modern science growing every year, if anything we should expand our school program, not contract. For example, teaching basics of abstract algebra, quaternions, octonions, and sedenions, statistics, maybe basic category theory. Quantum field theory in physics, etc.

Do you have a textbook in mind to teach high schoolers QFT? I'm dubious one could write such a textbook, but I'd love to be proven wrong. I ask since I have taken a course on QFT lite. We had to spend three weeks just doing tensors, and this was after everyone was comfortable with linear algebra and calculus and so forth.

Something like this [1] or this[2].

[1] https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2015/08/20/qft/

[2] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MmG2ah5Df4g

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#742

Post by dmitrygr » Sat, Nov 27, 2021, 6:13 PM UTC

ryan93 wrote: post #703

dmitrygr wrote: post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn’t. And I recognize that. Maybe it is about time we recognized that not everyone is cut out for calculus either?

that was my point should have used /s

Sorry I missed the implied “/s”. I see it now. :)

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#743

Post by hackinthebochs » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 2:08 PM UTC

zwirbl wrote: post #724

hackinthebochs wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the stratification by social class an example of correlation or causation?

This could be rephrased as: Are poor people less able?

You seem to discount that as a possibility a priori. Why? There is a plausible connection between one's ability to thrive in a knowledge or skills-based economy and one's socioeconomic status.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#744

Post by dathinab » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #555

dathinab wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhm, are you sure. I multiple times heard from exchange students that the standard of the English curses they had in the US hand been below the standard of the English cursed they had Germany...

German 7 years old dont speak fluent English at all.

I think it's obvious that I'm speaking about older children, as I'm speaking about exchange students...

Which yes you could argue is somewhat out of context as the original discussion is for children around age 7.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#745

Post by visarga » Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 11:57 PM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #622

gruez wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like china's gaokao? It might be mericratic, but it's also very high stakes and just leads to your entire high school being devoted to test cramming.

It can be high stakes exams, the admit ion grade is 75% the grade of the national exam. For addition in high school there is always a possibility of transfers if you maybe had a super bad day and got a low grade , for university you can wait 1 year and try again. > and just leads to your entire high school being devoted to test cramming. This is a better measure on how competent you are then some lottery or interview…

> So you could not randomly distribute children around and ignore their preferences

I believe SJ activists care only about class conflict and don't have any respect for individual choice. Like feminists criticising women who choose to be housewives. They know what's better for everyone.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#746

Post by lern_too_spel » Tue, Nov 30, 2021, 9:58 PM UTC

zarzavat wrote: post #366

lern_too_spel wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A typical American high school will not have enough students enrolled in calculus to require more than one calculus teacher.

Is it that their parents are indifferent to their kids' education? Or they don't realise that calculus is important in many fields? Or they just want their kids to become a lawyer?

I am not aware of any surveys, but I would guess that many parents think it is the school's job to motivate students to study further math, while many schools think their only job is to teach enough students to pass the basic standardized tests, and neither side has properly communicated their beliefs.

Other parents likely believe that further math isn't necessary because they have done well without it and think their children will as well. They do not understand that a large portion of the world that was impoverished when they were growing up now have functioning education systems and are now able to compete for the same cushy jobs.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#747

Post by csa » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 5:32 AM UTC

camelite wrote: post #715

csa wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but even very young children can learn these concepts if you would just spend some time teaching it to them. Many decades of cognitive science disagree with you. See Piaget for one of the earlier researchers on this topic. Even though his original ideas have been refuted or refined, the basic premises of his ideas are still prominent among the large group of modern researchers that some people dub neo-Piagetians.

Why would we "see" Piaget if his work, as you correctly note, his theories have been refuted? Educationalists, who have never personally and successfully taught anythingmarried simply wrong theories of learning, are a good 50% of the problem.

You left out the “refined” part of my comment.

Most of the broader ideas that he espoused and is famous for were refined in a way that made them accurately generalizable. Typical research timeline where an idea is introduced and is refined over time.

Some of the specific ideas he stated (and typically backed with data) was not generalizable to broader populations and was therefore refuted as an absolute. The data and conclusions were not necessarily wrong for the sample of the population studied, but they were not found to be as broadly true as initially believed.

This additional research led to the refinement of his theories, to great effect, imho.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#748

Post by zwirbl » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 8:34 AM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #743

zwirbl wrote: post #724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This could be rephrased as: Are poor people less able?

You seem to discount that as a possibility a priori. Why? There is a plausible connection between one's ability to thrive in a knowledge or skills-based economy and one's socioeconomic status.

I don't want to discount that as a possibility, it is much more a matter of fact. A lot has to do with wealthier people being able to afford better education and generally being able to invest more time in the offsprings chances on the jobmarket. This all leads to very able people having worse chances because they had bad luck in the socioeconomic class lottery when being born, thus unnecessarily restricting mobility between social classes.