A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#741

Post by flavius29663 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 11:48 PM UTC

munk-a wrote: post #650

kenjackson wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally I don't think this is very important compared to other topics. There are more blind people than trans people. There are more people with Alzheimer's than trans people. There are more people in the US who have lost a limb than trans people. It's not impactful in terms of the number of people, but its a civil rights issue for those on the left. And for those on the right its just one more group trying to c…

Honestly though the question around sports fairness is less a problem raised by trans people and more just an existing issue exposed. Female and male bodies work differently on average but there are a good number of women more fit and physically capable than 99% of men - gender is not an independent variable in physical fitness but I do wonder if there's really much of a reason to keep insisting that the genders be s…

> I do wonder if there's really much of a reason to keep insisting that the genders be separated into exclusive leagues.

The world champion team of female soccer gets beat by a boys under 15 high school team https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-b...

The 203rd male tennis player absolutely crushes the Williams sisters https://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2017/06/27/595296da468a...

Women 100m record is 10.49. High-schoolers can run in 10.00 s https://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/Athlete.aspx?AID=1265... Men's record is under 10.

If you do away with the women leagues, you will see 99% males in almost all sports.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#742

Post by beckman466 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 11:48 PM UTC

> Yet the most worrying effect is likely to be invisible. An unknown number of university employees avoid expressing their opinion for fear it will damage their career or turn them into pariahs. The report about Essex says witnesses described a “culture of fear” among those with gender-critical views.

Why the hell is this a bad thing? I also don't want to hear from conservatives about their anti-women abortion stances (which they Doublespeak-ingly refer to as their 'pro-life' position). Yes there are a bunch of conservatives in Europe, but fuck no can they stop women from having autonomy over their body and choosing to have an abortion.

Also once you have a trans friend and you hear first hand about their journeys to figure themselves out, why would you intentionally misgender this friend and not honor their request for their chosen pronouns? At same point it's just purely about intentionally causing others pain; likely it's some unconscious pain originating from some traumas, which ends up getting directed and projected onto others.

The Economist is neo-liberal and conservative drivel. Can't believe my economics teacher was trying to get us to read it.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#743

Post by whoooooo123 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 11:50 PM UTC

worik wrote: post #485

otde wrote: post #440

On other subjects on HN (software, mostly), I find curious, questioning people, who will, for the most part, engage very seriously with the subject matter. I think this is because users here engage with software -- the creation, maintenance, collaboration, the joy and misery of it all -- frequently and with a passion for nuance. When high-visibility articles on trans people show up, it's almost inevitably when our tr…

I agree that there is more heat than light in these debates. The Gender Critical Feminists do make up bogeyman stories about rapists in prisons, trans women disrupting breast feeding groups etcetera. The Trans lobby though has also been guilty of the same sort of thing. E.g. I am no fan of professional sport (I hope this kills it dead) but to claim that trans women have no advantage over natal women is opinion not fa…

> bogeyman stories about rapists in prisons

As I said in another comment, this is far from a bogeyman story - there was already a case in the UK of a male-bodied convicted rapist being housed in a woman's prison because "she" decided post-conviction that "she" identified as female. She then went on to sexually assault multiple female inmates. Look up the name Karen White.

I put "she" in quotes not because I have a problem with respecting trans people's pronouns in general but because there have been suggestions that this particular criminal didn't really identify as trans and the whole thing was a cynical ploy to get access to easy victims.

Obviously the vast majority of trans people are not Karen White, but then this is the exact kind of thing that people warned would happen when self-id gets taken to its logical conclusion. Sweeping it under the rug isn't a good look.

Obviously there are transphobes out there who'll point to Karen White and disingenuously say "we're only trying to stop female inmates from getting raped!" when in fact that's just a cudgel for their real, more sinister agenda. But that makes it more important that decent people be allowed to discuss these issues in good faith.

If normal people aren't allowed to have an honest conversation about the thorny aspects of (say) gender self-id, the only people left to discuss it will be the lunatics who don't care about appearing respectable. They'll even be empowered, because it lets them say to their base "look! The authorities are trying to hide this from you!"

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#744

Post by 9wzYQbTYsAIc » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 11:51 PM UTC

motohagiography wrote: post #147

One shouldn't expect courage from The Economist, but it's always wise to bet on their prudence. I don't read The Economist for facts or details so much as to get a sense of what topics a current establishment can no longer afford to ignore. The details are secondary to the neccessity that a writer, a sub-editor, and a senior editor with tremendous personal stake in maintaining access to the circles that define establ…

> I don't think direct discourse on the topic improves the discussion on gender because the participants use a critical theory in which the promise of discourse is just bait to corner political targets for their mobs.

Are you suggesting that we should leave gender to the scientists and when The Economist has spoken, it should be recognized as the moment that “the science is in”?

I could understand your first paragraph, the second seems like a non-sequitor.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#745

Post by honkdaddy » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 11:52 PM UTC

makeworld wrote: post #438

btilly wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is hard to say. In a world full of discrimination against trans folks, who knows how many people who would prefer being trans have failed to be identified? But the topic is much bigger than that. You see, the ideology being pushed says that everyone who has gender dysphoria should be assumed to be trans. But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. Wh…

> But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. What little research exists on the topic says that most of those girls will grow out of their gender dysphoria, and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them will backfire. Could you link to this research? This is a fraught topic that includes fraudulent studies and claims like this mean li…

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095578/

I don't think this study is perfect by any means, especially as the data is coming from parents of said teenage girls, but it's a place to start.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#746

Post by munk-a » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 11:53 PM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #710

handrous wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only pile on with anecdotal evidence from what my spouse has seen, working in middle schools: yeah, like half of kids who ask to start going by an opposite-gender name, ask to be addressed by different pronouns, start dressing differently, et c., in middle school end up changing their minds before they reach high school, and it is often girls. From what I have heard this does not, however, lead me to believe th…

I'll add onto this, if people are genuinely worried about invasive surgery, the policing of trans identity is counterproductive to addressing that concern. What would be productive is allowing kids to use different pronouns, allowing them to dress themselves the way they wish and allowing them to seek affirmative care and affirmative communities -- so that they can explore their own gender identity without feeling li…

Puberty blockers are a pretty nifty tool to this end - they allow any hard committal to be deferred - the child can reverse their decision without any serious long term ills. I am rather concerned about the possibility that invasive surgery might become normalized in non-adults but I don't believe it's something that's close to happening.

Teenagers explore their identity in a number of vectors. I have always been strongly opposed to parentally imposed career choices and gender falls into this same category except there is some genetic predisposition that will carry on bodily changes unless proactive intervention is undertaken.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#747

Post by gentleman11 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 11:55 PM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #710

handrous wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only pile on with anecdotal evidence from what my spouse has seen, working in middle schools: yeah, like half of kids who ask to start going by an opposite-gender name, ask to be addressed by different pronouns, start dressing differently, et c., in middle school end up changing their minds before they reach high school, and it is often girls. From what I have heard this does not, however, lead me to believe th…

I'll add onto this, if people are genuinely worried about invasive surgery, the policing of trans identity is counterproductive to addressing that concern. What would be productive is allowing kids to use different pronouns, allowing them to dress themselves the way they wish and allowing them to seek affirmative care and affirmative communities -- so that they can explore their own gender identity without feeling li…

> What would be productive is allowing kids to use different pronouns

The debate is not about whether somebody can use a pronoun. It’s whether everyone else is compelled to use it as well. It’s the difference between positive and negative rights - whether you have the right to compel others to behave a certain way vs whether you have the right to behave a certain way yourself. Legally compelled speech creates a real Pandora’s box.

I think you should feel good for being respectful and for using whatever terms people prefer, but punishing people for not doing so seems wrong minded

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#748

Post by pseudalopex » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 11:55 PM UTC

eloff wrote: post #735

pseudalopex wrote: post #729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Birds of a feather flock together.

I do not find that sufficient to explain away the phenomenon. It could account for part of it.

Why?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#749

Post by danShumway » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 11:57 PM UTC

slibhb wrote: post #347

throwaway284534 wrote: post #36

There’s a lot that’s already been said in this topic but I feel compelled to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points. The conversation goes something like this: “Transgender women possess an innate maleness that carries a non-zero threat to female spaces.” They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one pre…

I don't think your explanation of "TERF talking points" is fair. Contra Judith Butler it's not clear that feminism has any meaning without some essential idea of "womanhood". That is fundamentally what disturbs "TERFs". When you talk about "this Goldilocks zone of womanhood," I think you've rediscovering one of the oldest philosophical discoveries: mental concepts and ideas (in this case "woman") do not apply perfect…

> "there is no distinction between biological women and trans women,"

There is no category of women that is entirely identical, where you couldn't distinguish between them.

Some AFAB women can't give birth. Some of them have more androgynous bodies. Some of them are black. Some of them have different levels of estrogen, or grow up in different social circles that impose different expectations about how they should act, or provide different opportunities.

Nobody is saying that AFAB women don't have different experiences than trans women, any more than anyone is saying that Black women don't have different experiences than white women. Womanhood has always been a broad category, and there has never been a point where you could accurately say that there are no distinctions between the subcategories within womanhood.

If TERFs believe there is a fundamental quality that makes them indistinguishable from every other woman, then they are being absurd. Even if you ignore trans women, that world doesn't exist.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#750

Post by Latty » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 11:58 PM UTC

slibhb wrote: post #347

throwaway284534 wrote: post #36

There’s a lot that’s already been said in this topic but I feel compelled to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points. The conversation goes something like this: “Transgender women possess an innate maleness that carries a non-zero threat to female spaces.” They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one pre…

I don't think your explanation of "TERF talking points" is fair. Contra Judith Butler it's not clear that feminism has any meaning without some essential idea of "womanhood". That is fundamentally what disturbs "TERFs". When you talk about "this Goldilocks zone of womanhood," I think you've rediscovering one of the oldest philosophical discoveries: mental concepts and ideas (in this case "woman") do not apply perfect…

It's really not complex. "Trans women are women" is directly comparable to "Adoptive parents are parents". It is a statement that biology is not the important factor generally, identity is.

The supposed fear that people believe there is some magic change to your chromosomes the second you chose to identify with a gender is patently absurd. There is obviously no real support for such an idea—it is a straw-man that no one reading the phrase "trans women are women" in good faith and taking even a second to look into what trans people are saying would assume was the intent.