Live data from Hacker News

Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

wsj.com

741–750 of 1001 posts

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#741
I find this very disturbing and wrong. This is exactly when moderation turns into censorship.

I understand why certain material can be deemed dangerous or wrong to have in public. There might be information that is intended, or has very high likeliness to be used, for harmful use. It can be filtered out - although I believe it will most often just keep it in the dark. Think "how to cook meth at home" or "how to make a bomb". Thats another talk for another day.

But this case is driven by fear of public opinion, people being offended (too easily) and trying to erase events from history.

If you see a negative or wrong stereotype used in literature, use the chance to talk to the kids. That will break down stereotypes and teach kids about the time that they are born in.

Also. Hitler happened. It's a thing. Reading "Mein Kampf" does not make you a nazi or dangerous. It makes you informed. Censoring it out does not change the fact that it happened. And we need all generations, current and future to understand the horrible that has happened. Not just the beautiful things.

Ebay and Amazon (and I'm sure many other companies) should show some character and have a bit more backbone!

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#742

I don't know any culture that banned books independent of their content that people didn't regret in the future. A few months ago I was reading about schools banning the book "To Kill a Mockingbird" because it contains basically the "n" word. I'm not american, and and havent read that book. I watched the movie, through, and it seemed to me to be a very anti racism message. I think instead of banning, schools should w…

Germany here, we banned Mein Kampf from being sold (used copyright law to do that). I once stood in a book shop (teenager, time to look at books but not enough money to buy them) and some skindheads wanted to buy it, it wasn't available. They went away. Providing context is good, but frankly also really difficult and why not just provide newer childrens books that are more inclusive.

Fun anecdote, but what is your larger point?

Do you think the skinheads then went on to join a moderate left party because they could actually read their party program?

At the point where you are already committed to an ideology to the point you drastically alter your appearance, you are hardly going to be deterred by a slightly harder to get book.

On the other hand, I don't see how anyone is going to turn Nazis by reading Mein Kampf. The book is hardly relevant today and a mediocre read at best, so the only ones that will make it to the end are academics, people seeking context or people that are already committed to Nazism anyway.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#743
post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "utterly repugnant" You forgot to add: "to someone, probably a minority, possibly entirely wrong".

I have never understood why people add sentences like: "probably a minority" to their arguments. This is something that weakens your stand. Let me explain: If a minority (nerds/D&D-players,etc) gets bullied in school. Is them being a minority: A) a fact that aggrieves the bullying B) a non-relevant fact C) a fact that absolves the bullies from their wrong-doing? Because it seems like you are implying that it's option…

There's a bit of a discussion here, you can promote either option depending on how you frame your hypothetical which means this particular framing doesn't add to the conversation. Take "medicine" and "side effects on a minority". Suddenly you can consider option C) as a perfectly reasonable one.

The problem is you didn't focus on the real critical issue: why do the ends justify the means? "The ends" for medicine is saving thousands of lives. The ends for bullying is making one person feel better about themselves (maybe?).

This is the question you need to ask when you wonder "should we ban a book".

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#744
It is not Fahrenheit 451 scenario we are talking here.

Societal norms and values changes and what was acceptable in 1950 is no longer in 2021.

Those cultural artifacts reflecting those times are still available and preserved but for good reason publishers don't want them to be in the mass market.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “weapon” here is just basic conscientiousness. A publisher decided to stop publishing some books because they denigrate people, and eBay decided that they did not want to be facilitating the sale of books that denigrate people. We are not talking about an H-bomb - there is no power structure wielding a “cancel button” here.

Ah yes, mein kampf is ok [1], but dr suess is a bridge too far. [Before anyone makes assumptions about my political views, i'm fine with publishers no longer publishing if tastes change, but i can't abide banning the sale of books in general. I don't really care what the content is] [1] https://www.ebay.ca/itm/MEIN-KAMPF-1939-Complete-Unabridged-...

That is not a children's book.

People getting that book have some idea what they are getting I hope.

I do not want racist stereotypes in books I read with my children

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#746
As someone without a star on his belly, I feel like harm is being done to me every time I read the story about the star bellied sneetches. I do not think that children nor adults need to be reminded about how inadequate they are in a world of star bellied sneetches.

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#747

As dis-heartening as this story is, compared to a couple of years ago, it is encouraging to see lots of comments from people beginning to wake up to what is going on with this craziness and not being modded here. Free speech is about protecting the right of the un-popular and views that some may find utterly repugnant. Why? because, as we are seeing with all of the woke craziness, when you don't stand up for everyone…

Virtual book burnings, virtual public shamings... We are stepping closer and closer to virtual middle ages...

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as we are seeing with all of the woke craziness People (eg, sex workers) have been getting deplatformed (often with the government assisting in - or requiring - the deplatforming!) for decades, and I didn’t hear the free-speech / right-wing types complaining. But now that some private companies don’t want to support racism, it’s a brand new problem we need to fight against? :P (I agree with the overall point that c…

De-platforming for decades?

If a TV station broadcast a daytime TV show containing violence, racism, and a female nipple - which aspect would they get in the most legal trouble for?

I’m neither a lawyer nor an American (I assume we’re talking about America here), but my reading and experience would suggest that the first is glorified, the second is tolerated, and the third can result in hundreds of millions of dollars of fines even if it’s a fraction of a second by accident (eg the Super Bowl XXXVIII halftime show being a particularly well-publicised incident. The $550,000 fine was eventually dismissed, but only because “it’s unfair to apply this rule retroactively”, not because there’s anything wrong with the rule...)

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#749

As dis-heartening as this story is, compared to a couple of years ago, it is encouraging to see lots of comments from people beginning to wake up to what is going on with this craziness and not being modded here. Free speech is about protecting the right of the un-popular and views that some may find utterly repugnant. Why? because, as we are seeing with all of the woke craziness, when you don't stand up for everyone…

While I agree that it's remarkable and likely not very helpful to so actively move to suppress these books, I think the argument that this matters for free speech is a poor one, deserving debunking.

Obviously there's the issue of protection of speech from government (protected by first amendment) vs. corporations (undermined by first amendment); but that's not the point I'm interested in.

There is a huge difference in speech that intentionally conveys an unpopular opinion for the sake of discussion, and speech in which that's not the point at all, and instead merely casually includes something toxic, or even accidentally. Essentially: whether the potentially unpopular or toxic message is explicit, vs. implicit.

The first category of speech (explicitly controversial) is highly important when it comes to transparency and the ability to think and debate clearly about uncomfortable issues. As far as I know, this is actually the only reason to protect speech in the first place; transparency and healthy debate matter.

The second category of speech (implicitly controversial) happens to be protected by the first amendment too; but it's more like collateral damage due to a limitations in the law (including because the distinction isn't always obvious).

Ideally, we'd replace the first amendment with something that more strongly protects the explicit category - even from corporate control - and at least tries to avoid protecting the second category, because such protections are easily abused (e.g. they're the reason why it's legal for a few corporations to effectively muzzle speech, and why it's so hard to control fake news).

As applied to dr. Seuss books - clearly there's no issue with transparency or debate here; no explicit point is being muzzled. There's no risk to free speech here, even if we happen to disagree on the policy of it's removal.

Put it this way: sometimes controlling speech (regardless of who is doing so) is harmful to free and open debate, hence it's worth protecting free speech. But conversely it does not hold that every infringement upon "free speech" necessarily impacts transparent and open debate. Quite the opposite; some forms of control can actually support transparency and open debate, e.g. control over spam and sheer volume (and this is one of the places where our current laws fail).

TL;DR: Slapping a "ZOMG free speech is under attack" statement under anything that happens to exercise editorial control misses the point of free speech in the first place. While we may have opinions on the specifics here, there is no question at all that this specific action does not harm the open, transparent debate needed for a healthy democracy. (And on a technical level it's alas the case that free speech is only protected from infringements by the state, not other powerful actors).

Re: Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

#750
post #578
post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sat in class while we learnt a carol which included the lines 'even if he's black sir'. It sucked. Not just offensive. To kill a mockingbird is a great book but not suitable for kids in it's current form but I don't think it should be rewritten. This isn't woke, it's decency and kindness.

You can't just go out there and delete history, no matter how bad it was, because you know what happens when you do that? You will end up repeating the past mistakes. The book shows how society was back then, you can't just all of a sudden decide that it didn't exist and somehow put kids in a bubble and hide our past from them.

It isn't about deleting history, it's about not teaching the same thing as was taught in the past. Normalisation of the depiction of racist serotypes in books & media normalises racism. It's subtle but in conversations I've had with PoC, they point out all these subtlies that they notice but were an invisible part of my conditioning growing up.

The history still exists, for when it's appropriate to study the history of race relations, but if you're teaching pre-school & primary school children to read you don't need to do so with images of black people dressed as tribesmen which normalise racist depictions of those people.

Post reply on HN