What went wrong with the Texas power grid? • Hacker News Board

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#741

Post by fulafel » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 6:15 AM UTC

landemva wrote: post #375

t0mbstone wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frozen wind turbines aren't the problem. https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02/16/texas-wind-turbines-...

Natural gas doesnt really freeze, so something else is going on here. Misleading text in linked article: "We didn’t run out of natural gas, but we ran out of the ability to get natural gas. Pipelines in Texas don’t use cold insulation – so things were freezing."

Yep, LNG boiling point is around -160C so Texas weather would still have to cool a fair bit before you even get to the previous phase change that comes before solid form.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#742

Post by hn_throwaway_99 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 6:15 AM UTC

pixl97 wrote: post #716

zamadatix wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most would rather pay an e.g. +10% premium for the plants to handle more extreme conditions once a decade than think about what has to be plugged in all day every day.

The generator will take that 10% as profit and not invest, then when the disaster happens they'll beg for public money and even higher rates.

It's quite easy to mandate providers have certain winterization requirements, lots of other power grids do it. For that matter, it's exactly why insurance is so tightly regulated, because government wants to ensure companies have the resources to handle rare but predictable events.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#743

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 6:16 AM UTC

[deleted]

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#744

Post by Johnny555 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 6:17 AM UTC

HNfriend234 wrote: post #612

svnpenn wrote: post #20

Dallas suburb here (Las Colinas). No power since Monday 6am. I had to get room at holiday inn. I actually got the room yesterday, but the hotel lost power after an hour, so I had to go back home and sleep in 5 degree apartment. Don't believe anything you read about "rolling outages". It's only rolling, if you define that as "out until it's not freezing anymore".

I'm in Dallas too. What we did was pull out our generator that runs on propane then run an extension cord from the garage to inside the house connected to an electric heater. Close the bedroom door. We were about 75 degrees. You are crazy to not have a backup generator! It is an essential item to have!

Until recently, I've mostly lived in apartments or condos where a backup generator is not easy to own or operate since there are limited places to store fuel or to put a generator while running. Even if I'm ok with putting it on the balcony and running a cord inside, my neighbor may not want the generator's exhaust in his balcony.

Now I live in a single-family home and have an entire RV parked beside the house (with an on-board generator, and around 100 hours of fuel in the RV's gas tank to run it). I can run an extension cord to power the house furnace as needed, but unless it was below freezing and I was worried about the pipes freezing in the house, I'd probably just let the house stay dark and move into the RV during an extended power outage.

So I can confidently say "You are crazy to not have a backup Recreational Vehicle!". Maybe I should buy a travel trailer to back up the RV.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#745

Post by bouncycastle » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 6:18 AM UTC

zamadatix wrote: post #593

bouncycastle wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still keeps the floor price of electricity up as some would probably not bother turning off in the case of an astronomical bitcoin price. (Read the article Yahoo, they are in fact keeping some on!) Also I'm assuming 429 TWh is when it's at full capacity. You have to quote the number for the current crippled capacity for a fair comparison.

429 TWh is average yearly usage, current "crippled" usage is 77% the yearly average usage, so 100% worldwide bitcoin usage would only account for ~1/3 the current "crippled" power delivery. Worldwide mining would have to pull a hell of a lot more than ~1/4 (of TX) of ~1/10 (TX of the US) ~1/7 (US of world) to be setting the price floor of electricity. http://www.ercot.com/gridinfo/load note some figures are in power…

Still, that's a lot of electricity that could have been warming houses.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#746

Post by tedunangst » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 6:20 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #546

gregw2 wrote: post #117

What went wrong is that the Texas legislature which owns Texas-specific grid process to avoid interference from the Feds didn't figure out how to also ensure Texas generator companies got compensated for weatherizing (and ensuring it was done). How many of the 24+6 recommendations from the NERC/FERC review of last time this happened in Texas (hint:2011) were taken up by the legislature or those at ERCOT they delegate…

Would customers be willing to pay 20% more for electric power to prevent a once a decade event?

The customers unfortunate enough to have signed up for spot pricing are paying 200x more than before. One week of that is enough to erase two decades of 20% savings.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#747

Post by axaxs » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 6:21 AM UTC

sizzle wrote: post #692

kelnos wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1996 (or thereabouts), I lived in Maryland, and my family lost power for 6 days due to a snow/ice storm that took out a ton of power lines (water froze on them and the added weight pulled them down). We had no natural gas service, and our running water was provided by a well in the backyard that had an electric pump. So no electricity, heat, or running water for 6 days in ~20-30°F weather. (Fortunately we'd prepar…

Is there no CO2 danger from sleeping with gas stove on? Don’t people die from carbon monoxide poisoning from sleeping with open flames?

No, due to ventilation. Even an indoor fireplace for example is -always- vented, so the gasses can escape via the chimney. If you close the damper with a fire blazing, you'll not have a good time.

Outdoor fires well, are outdoors, so there's plenty of oxygen.

People die nearly every year in the brutal cold from getting desperate and bringing grills and such indoors to light, which is a big no no.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#748

Post by byecomputer » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 6:23 AM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #230

lurquer wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you people for real? What did people with children, elderly, and pets do 150 years ago? If your house is 25f, put on a couple sweaters and a coat and have a beer. It’s not the end of the world. As far as the kids go, they’re outside building snowforts. In short, you make do. It astounds me that the typical HN poster can whip up a C++ compiler, pontificate about solutions to every social-ill, purport to speak inte…

> If your house is 25f, put on a couple sweaters and a coat and have a beer. It’s not the end of the world. Houses were designed very differently 150 years ago. Lower roofs, fewer windows, huge thick drapes or tapestries on the walls, animal skins or carpets on the floors. 9 ft windows (double pane or not) on all walls is going to leak out a lot of heat. Most importantly, fireplaces. Houses had fireplaces, and rooms…

My house is 140 years old and it's a sieve with 12 ft ceilings & 9 ft windows... in Iowa.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#749

Post by pixl97 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 6:28 AM UTC

aardvarkr wrote: post #123

soulofmischief wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also: I live in Texas and have 100% renewable energy, so I feel sidelined by such comments.

Just an FYI, unless you’re off the grid you aren’t actually 100% renewable. I live in Texas and found this to be super confusing when I signed up for power for the first time. If you think about it for a second it makes sense that you’re getting the same energy as the rest of your neighbors and the grid is made up of many many different types of power plants. The “100% renewable” bit means that when the power broker…

Think of it like you pay for grain harvested by well paid workers. But you don't get that grain directly. Instead all the grain harvested by everyone, even underpaid near slaves, is put in one big pile. When you go get your 5 pounds from the pile you are getting the mix from everyone, but the well paid workers are the ones earning the money.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#750

Post by epistasis » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 6:28 AM UTC

snowwindwaves wrote: post #630

epistasis wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes of course, that's trivial. Grid connections are measured in power, not in energy units.

Not for batteries since a battery that can deliver 17 GW for an hour is much smaller than one that can deliver 17 GW for a week. Usually grid connections are measured in power since you could use it at 100% indefinitely - not so with a battery , so hours matter.

Regardless, the interconnection absolutely does not care about the MWh of the battery. It has no concern, no care, no need to know. So when talking about interconnection queues, only the GW are reported.

As far as 17GW of battery, the only technology shipping at that scale is lithium ion, and all lithium ion grid batteries are designed for 30 minutes to 4 hours of duration at maximum discharge.

The idea of a week long battery is not a realistic one at this stage. With Texas' excellent solar resources, it may never need long-duration storage, whenever/if that tech gets developed.