WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app • Hacker News Board

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#741

Post by Tepix » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 11:53 AM UTC

dijit wrote: post #46

frereubu wrote: post #22

I'd love to give up WhatsApp, but network effects are key here. I tried moving my extended family off WhatsApp onto Signal a couple of years ago and it failed miserably because the app wasn't nearly as easy to use, and they had all their friends on Whatsapp. Has anyone here had any success moving a large group of people onto something like Signal or Telegram? If so, do you have any tips?

I contact the majority of my friends with telegram, the UX is similar enough and people get on board quite quickly- the difficult part is convincing someone to install /another/ messaging app- if they have network effects too then it's a hard sell. But once most people have both it gets easier. Signal (UX wise) is not really super great for my family, I burned a lot of my "technical expert advisor" capital and reputa…

Telegram has no end-to-end encryption for group chats at all.

And normal chats are not end-to-end encrypted by default. Are you using end-to-end encrypted chats with your contacts?

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#742

Post by edeion » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 11:53 AM UTC

tdubhro1 wrote: post #692

kar1181 wrote: post #677

It's harder for US folks to understand just how much of a monopoly WhatsApp has in Europe and the UK. Pretty much all of our school and local community communication happens via WhatsApp. I'd change to Signal or Telegram in a heartbeat, but the inertia is so great it's not possible. It pains me to say, but we're getting to the point where companies like Twitter, Facebook and Google need to be treated like utilities o…

I'm also in the UK and I deleted WhatsApp 2 years ago when it became clear that Facebook intended to move in the direction of fuller integration (I deleted my Facebook account after 1 month of usage 10 years ago). However, I had to reinstall WhatsApp because all of my kid's sports activities and school updates are organised through WhatsApp groups and it is impossible to participate without WhatsApp. Much as I believ…

My experience is similar.

I want to add that when I left WhatsApp (~2y ago) I deleted my account. WhatsApp kept accepting messages on my behalf. People didn't know I wasn't getting their messages. I'm surprised I don't see this mentioned to the point I wonder if I did something wrong at the time.

In the end, I reopened a WhatsApp account recently because everyone is using WhatsApp in France and I couldn't stand breaking everyone's efforts to bring us together during lockdown.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#743

Post by cranekam » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 11:53 AM UTC

cookiengineer wrote: post #556

cranekam wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their infra is generating those encryption certificates, so WhatsApp can very well decode the message and store it for further processing. This is incorrect. The sender's device generates the key with which it encrypts outgoing messages. WhatsApp's infra cannot see the content of any messages sent. (Source: ex-WhatsApp employee)

The issue I have with that statement is that it cannot be proven. There is no source code of whatsapp, so this could have been changed anytime. I mean, it's certainly possible to have an administrative backdoor that just shares the local keys. Even when that wasn't the case when you worked there, and even if we believe that you say the truth: we still cannot be certain that this won't change on February 8th. I mean,…

Yes, of course this can't be proven. I'm reasonably confident what I stated still holds but I can't be certain. If that's enough of a turn off for you then your best bet is to not use the service.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#744

Post by Tepix » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 11:55 AM UTC

Hammershaft wrote: post #420

frereubu wrote: post #22

I'd love to give up WhatsApp, but network effects are key here. I tried moving my extended family off WhatsApp onto Signal a couple of years ago and it failed miserably because the app wasn't nearly as easy to use, and they had all their friends on Whatsapp. Has anyone here had any success moving a large group of people onto something like Signal or Telegram? If so, do you have any tips?

Telegram is fantastic! Frankly I think it has a better ux then Whatsapp, especially considering the desktop apps.

Telegram lacks end-to-end encrypted group chats and normal chats are not end-to-end encrypted by default, you have to switch to a "secure" chat every time you start a new chat.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#745

Post by Tepix » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 11:56 AM UTC

holler wrote: post #267

frereubu wrote: post #22

I'd love to give up WhatsApp, but network effects are key here. I tried moving my extended family off WhatsApp onto Signal a couple of years ago and it failed miserably because the app wasn't nearly as easy to use, and they had all their friends on Whatsapp. Has anyone here had any success moving a large group of people onto something like Signal or Telegram? If so, do you have any tips?

Yes, I've moved all my friends and family to Telegram and it's been great. I communicate with them daily since many months.

What percentage of those messages are end-to-end encrypted?

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#746

Post by cranekam » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 11:56 AM UTC

baq wrote: post #574

cranekam wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their infra is generating those encryption certificates, so WhatsApp can very well decode the message and store it for further processing. This is incorrect. The sender's device generates the key with which it encrypts outgoing messages. WhatsApp's infra cannot see the content of any messages sent. (Source: ex-WhatsApp employee)

it doesn't matter. whatsapp client sees the plaintext (duh). nothing stopping the ad arm of FB to process this.

Clearly. As with any encryption, at some point it needs to be decrypted for human consumption, and since someone else wrote the code/maintains to do this it's not impossible something naughty/distasteful will happen with the content. I'm just correcting the notion that the encryption is all orchestrated centrally and that viewing the messages in transit is trivial.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#747

Post by StreamBright » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 11:56 AM UTC

turkeywelder wrote: post #678

jcalve wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it would force people to use better alternatives such as Signal or Telegram.

that'll never happen - WhatsApp is almost WeChat for Europe, it's ubiquitous and the network effect is so strong you'll really struggle to get masses of people to switch away fom it. 99% of people outside of the HN bubble will just look at the dialog, click OK and carry on as normal.

I have messaged a bunch of my EU friends with this article. Most of them were shocked.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#748

Post by elmo2you » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 11:56 AM UTC

rusk wrote: post #583

submeta wrote: post #467

I am in the EU, and this is what I have been presented with: „ By tapping Agree, you accept the new terms, which take effect on February 8, 2021. After this date, you’ll need to accept the new terms to continue using WhatsApp. You can also visit the Help Center if you would prefer to delete your account and would like more information. To learn more about how WhatsApp processes your data, read our updated privacy pol…

As I understand it even with click thru agreement like this it is still illegal in the EU. Could be an interesting case on the way... I believe that WhatsApp only real option in this case is to stop serving the EU, which I feel as an EU residents could only be a good thing!

I believe so too.

In addition, I vaguely remember something about the acquisition of WhatsApp by Facebook to be only approved under condition that exactly this kind of data sharing would not happen.

Although I have my doubts about it happening soon, because the immediate impact it would have on real everyday life could by rather disastrous initially (something Facebook no doubt is aware of), the EU should probably declare/certify Facebook as a rogue/criminal organization. I just can't see it any other way, with Facebook's blatant disregard for anything but its own greedy interests.

If Facebook keeps pushing their "luck" like this, it should simply have all its assets on EU soil frozen. If eventually rules a criminal organization, confiscated too. It would be very sad and unfortunate for any EU citizens working for the company, who no doubt have no say in Facebook's criminal enterprise. But the current status quo is becoming completely unacceptable.

History has plenty of lessons, about criminal organizations rising to (hard to defeat levels of) power. In many cases more than anything because both societies and governments/authorities failed to respond appropriately in time, when they still had a fair chance containing those (with far less effort).

All that is even without opening the can of worms that is the access US government agencies have to all of Facebook's data.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#749

Post by Tepix » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 11:57 AM UTC

bilekas wrote: post #643

Valodim wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It bears repeating: Telegram is not e2e encrypted. Messages you write on telegram will be stored on some Russian servers forever.

What are you talking about ? Telegram encryption is based on 2048-bit RSA encryption, 256-bit symmetric AES encryption, and Diffie–Hellman secure key exchange For end2end you can just use the secret chat function.. https://core.telegram.org/api/end-to-end Feel free to check their source out - https://telegram.org/apps#source-code So I'm not sure what 'bears repeating'.

The "secret chat" function should be default. Why isn't it? Also, it's not available at all for group chats.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#750

Post by bigbizisverywyz » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 11:58 AM UTC

tdubhro1 wrote: post #692

kar1181 wrote: post #677

It's harder for US folks to understand just how much of a monopoly WhatsApp has in Europe and the UK. Pretty much all of our school and local community communication happens via WhatsApp. I'd change to Signal or Telegram in a heartbeat, but the inertia is so great it's not possible. It pains me to say, but we're getting to the point where companies like Twitter, Facebook and Google need to be treated like utilities o…

I'm also in the UK and I deleted WhatsApp 2 years ago when it became clear that Facebook intended to move in the direction of fuller integration (I deleted my Facebook account after 1 month of usage 10 years ago). However, I had to reinstall WhatsApp because all of my kid's sports activities and school updates are organised through WhatsApp groups and it is impossible to participate without WhatsApp. Much as I believ…

the issue is that people would probably not want to pay for an app like WhatsApp, and so the 'free' alternative takes hold, and whoever controls that gets the cost of running the infrastructure in advertisement fees.

If some company could set themselves up as a utility, and the mobile network operators were to pay that company to run the messaging app + infra, then it could be made to operate like a utility and nobodies data would have to be sold.