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Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

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Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#741

Post by JungleGymSam »

shreyansj wrote: post #571
marcell wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we didn't follow through with the lockdown nationally to actually stomp the virus This statement implies that there's a way to completely eradicate the virus, eg. if everyone in the world stays locked in their homes for 6 weeks, then the virus will be eradicated. That's not realistic, the level of coordination required to make that happen does not exist. So eradicating the virus was never on the table, no matter ho…

But if everyone had stayed locked in for 6 weeks and if that had prevented 50000 deaths, how is that not worth it?

Is this a serious question?

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#742

Post by JungleGymSam »

shreyansj wrote: post #633
thatguy0900 wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could that possibly have happened? Food needs to be planted, harvested(in many situations primarily by migratory workers from other countries) and delivered, power needs to be kept up, necessary medical supplies needs manufactoring, water needs to be cleaned and delivered. There's no scenario where the world gets to collectively take a break

Right, but the world could have refrained from partying on the beaches [1] [1] - https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/news/2020/07/16/vacati...

They could have also refrained from protesting and rioting over a demonstrably false narrative of death-by-police.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#743

Post by oramit »

mtgp1000 wrote: post #479
oramit wrote: post #358

What we currently have going on right now is a complete collapse in confidence. So many commenters are debating the death rate, case counts, hospitalizations, etc, which is all besides the point. Heres the thing: even if you believe people are being irrationally afraid, telling people they are stupid and should just suck it up isn't going to get people to cooperate. Do you want to be smugly right, or do you want thin…

>Telling people that only 1% of them will die so it's all okay is telling people you don't care about them - they notice, they're not dumb. No no no no no. It's high time we stop treating everything as black and white in this country. It's not just callously disregarding the dead - it's about determining whether the literal and figurative loss of life caused by a lockdown is worth the loss of life caused by the virus…

You've been downvoted quite a bit but I think your post is a good example of the problem at hand.

Yes, we have to make choices about costs and we can't save everyone. Yes, the data is super noisy and its hard to tell what is happening. Yes, the media loves bashing Trump.

But none of that is important because then you go right into downplaying things and saying that "if you compare per capital rates ours were actually on par with most other first world nations until the recent protests". The tone-deafness of this sentence is astounding to me. People are scared, telling them that actually we only failed as badly as other countries, is, wow.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#744

Post by theonething »

electriclove wrote: post #626
oramit wrote: post #358

What we currently have going on right now is a complete collapse in confidence. So many commenters are debating the death rate, case counts, hospitalizations, etc, which is all besides the point. Heres the thing: even if you believe people are being irrationally afraid, telling people they are stupid and should just suck it up isn't going to get people to cooperate. Do you want to be smugly right, or do you want thin…

I'm very pleased by the decision from the top in California today about keeping schools remote until things get better. The only complaint I have is how long it took to get there. Tons of people at hundreds/thousands of school districts and private schools throughout the state have spent incredible effort debating and planning and so much effort could have been saved if the decision from the top was made earlier.

Why do you believe keeping schools closed is better than reopening? Have you looked into the research? Most of my findings indicate that the benefits of opening safely outweigh the the risks and the adverse effects of school closure (to the children, families and society) outweigh the benefits.

Just one quote out of many:

> Weighing the health risks of reopening K-12 schools in fall 2020 against the educational risks of providing no in-person instruction, school districts should prioritize reopening schools full time, especially for grades K-5 and students with special needs, according to a new report from the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine.

https://www.nationalacademies.org/news/2020/07/schools-shoul...

https://www.mathematica.org/commentary/reopening-schools-whi...

https://jamanetwork.com/channels/health-forum/fullarticle/27...

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2020/07/18/the-risks-of-ke...

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/...

https://globalhealth.washington.edu/sites/default/files/COVI...

Edit: I realize this is a contentious topic. I'm definitely not trying to stir up political wars here. I'm submitting my question and research findings here because I trust this place for civil and intellectual discourse.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#745

Post by eaandkw »

clairity wrote: post #241
antepodius wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Withdrawing and becoming independent from state systems isn't giving up; it's probably a first step towards a more organic, liberated society.

the action can have a variety of impetuses, but @eaandkw literally stated they're giving up.

The context of what I mean by saying that I am giving up is that institutions, government, and corporations are unreliable. I can't make decisions based on conditions as they are today because as soon as I do the rug will be pulled out from under me and leave me on my butt. This means that if I had a great idea for a business I will decide not to start that business. That vacation that I was planning won't happen anymore. Certain cities I may have been inclined to visit I won't enter anymore. Heck I even have to self-censor myself now for any thoughts I have because who knows who is going to get offended and try to prevent me from having a job, credit card, or even an opinion.

That is mostly what I mean.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#746

Post by BLKNSLVR »

samatman wrote: post #694
rayiner wrote: post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Island.

Yes, exactly. But Australia is also an island, in the relevant sense for this discussion, and didn't succeed in eradication. Hawaii also had considerable success, albeit recently undermined. Much to my chagrin, since I live here. My conclusion is that eradicating this virus is very difficult, even with all the advantages. But again, not impossible.

Australia's is an interesting case because the recent spike coincides (~2 week lag) with the lifting of most of the restrictions. It's also only really spiking in one state (although NSW may be slipstreaming Victoria).

This is evidence that the lockdown rules were having a significant effect on suppression, and eradication may have been within reach had the easing been delayed another month or two.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#747

Post by scarface74 »

bjustin wrote: post #669
scarface74 wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also the Supreme Court just said that states that give money to secular schools must also give money to religious schools. And religious schools can discriminate in a separate decision.

I believe the case about giving money to religious schools was regarding publicly accessible facilities (playgrounds), so it doesn't change anything about funding for classrooms, teachers, etc.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/30/us/supreme-court-religiou...

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#748

Post by rpiguy »

Buttons840 wrote: post #385
rpiguy wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. And there are many millions of unafraid people. Doesn't mean they aren't cautious, but they understand risk. Children have a higher chance of dying in a car accident, are you going to stop driving tomorrow, because you know a non-zero chance of dying is all you will accept.

> Children have a higher chance of dying in a car accident Some numbers related to this claim: In 2018 about 37,000 people died in the U.S. in motor vehicle accidents, not all of them were children. Currently, about 250,000 people are dying per year from COVID19 in the U.S. Not all of them are children. It's not clear to me that your claim is true. Granted, only a few COVID19 deaths are children, but how many auto fa…

For frame of reference according to the CDC 31 total deaths of children age 1-14 since the pandemic started.

That’s not a typo - 31.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Ag...

130 died from flu.

675 died children in car accidents.

https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/child_passenger_safet...

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#749

Post by rpiguy »

dragonwriter wrote: post #462
rpiguy wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no science behind the lockdowns. There is no logic in keeping Walmart open but closing Sears for safety. Yes I believe it is absurd the level to which we have locked down the country. Some of the states that had the strictest lockdowns, NY, NJ, also had the worst outcomes. The purpose was never to stop the virus but to slow it. Growing cases does not concern me. Death rate has blipped up a little but no wher…

> Some of the states that had the strictest lockdowns, NY, NJ, also had the worst outcomes. NYC metro ordered lockdowns after it was hard hit, because it was hit early on before there was a real understanding of what was going on. A lot of other places still haven’t peaked, the reopening push in response to overall national case decline was driven entirely by NY being past it's peak while the rest of the country comb…

It is normal for ICUs to be at or near capacity. This is also misleading journalism. Most ICUs are in “surge” cities right now are 20-30% Covid.

Reporting that they are at capacity intimates that they are packed full of Covid patients and overflowing.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#750

Post by wegs »

theonething wrote: post #744
electriclove wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm very pleased by the decision from the top in California today about keeping schools remote until things get better. The only complaint I have is how long it took to get there. Tons of people at hundreds/thousands of school districts and private schools throughout the state have spent incredible effort debating and planning and so much effort could have been saved if the decision from the top was made earlier.

Why do you believe keeping schools closed is better than reopening? Have you looked into the research? Most of my findings indicate that the benefits of opening safely outweigh the the risks and the adverse effects of school closure (to the children, families and society) outweigh the benefits. Just one quote out of many: > Weighing the health risks of reopening K-12 schools in fall 2020 against the educational risks…

That's not research. That's opinion pieces from research organizations. There's a question of values, which is a personal question. I don't want the moral weight of risking that my child catch COVID19 and cause someone else to die.

If I were a teacher, I wouldn't want to be in a position where a mistake I make can make people die.

I can run the numbers as well as the next guy, and I know the risks. I don't want my schools to reopen. If you're from a different culture, you can run the same numbers, get the same risk profile, and say "Heck, if n people die to keep m more kids in school, that's worth it," for the exact same values of n and m.

On questions of values and culture, reasonable people can disagree. Every fiber of my being can scream to prioritize life, and every fiber of your being can scream to prioritize schooling. It's entirely a question of values and culture.

As a footnote, my concern is less about death and more about long-term disability. There, we can more-or-less speculate about the risks.

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