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Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Slavery is any system in which principles of property law are applied to people, allowing individuals to own, buy and sell other individuals, as a de jure form of property." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery Living paycheck-to-paycheck or hand-to-mouth like most humans lived for most of human history does not make one a slave. To state otherwise is to compare mere existence to slavery. Unless someone is an actua…

Literalism does nothing here because the concept of wage-slavery is more like the concept of serfdom than slavery. But language is malleable over time and it's commonly understood what it means, especially to people familiar with the struggle to survive in the modern economy.

Then call it wage-serfdom then. It's not slavery.

> But language is malleable over time

If the liberty someone is taking with the language is intentionally trying to manipulate how people think about something by abusing what words are commonly accepted as meaning, it's completely fair to call out that manipulation.

“The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.” ― Philip K. Dick

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literalism does nothing here because the concept of wage-slavery is more like the concept of serfdom than slavery. But language is malleable over time and it's commonly understood what it means, especially to people familiar with the struggle to survive in the modern economy.

Then call it wage-serfdom then. It's not slavery. > But language is malleable over time If the liberty someone is taking with the language is intentionally trying to manipulate how people think about something by abusing what words are commonly accepted as meaning, it's completely fair to call out that manipulation. “The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the m…

It happens all the time that people chose their language precisely and in ways that clearly have more impact on another party's perception. Being pedantic over the definition of a word only distracts from what that word(s) is trying to do. I sense that you are really uncomfortable over what the word "wage-slavery" implies about the society you are participating in and are trying to cheapen it.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then call it wage-serfdom then. It's not slavery. > But language is malleable over time If the liberty someone is taking with the language is intentionally trying to manipulate how people think about something by abusing what words are commonly accepted as meaning, it's completely fair to call out that manipulation. “The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the m…

It happens all the time that people chose their language precisely and in ways that clearly have more impact on another party's perception. Being pedantic over the definition of a word only distracts from what that word(s) is trying to do. I sense that you are really uncomfortable over what the word "wage-slavery" implies about the society you are participating in and are trying to cheapen it.

You're cheapening what slavery is. It's honestly pretty disgusting to equate serfdom to slavery. They aren't even in the same league.

Go read more about modern day slavery and then come back and try to justify comparing the circumstance of these people to those who are actually being treated as property by others.

https://www.antislavery.org/slavery-today/modern-slavery/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_21st_century

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It happens all the time that people chose their language precisely and in ways that clearly have more impact on another party's perception. Being pedantic over the definition of a word only distracts from what that word(s) is trying to do. I sense that you are really uncomfortable over what the word "wage-slavery" implies about the society you are participating in and are trying to cheapen it.

You're cheapening what slavery is. It's honestly pretty disgusting to equate serfdom to slavery. They aren't even in the same league. Go read more about modern day slavery and then come back and try to justify comparing the circumstance of these people to those who are actually being treated as property by others. https://www.antislavery.org/slavery-today/modern-slavery/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_2…

Red badges not treating you kingly enough?

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think rents and other costs will rise to the equilibrium point where a lot of people are stressed by the price but just about able to pay it. Same as now. It's not a coincidence that the cost of living is equal to the amount which lots of people struggle with, yet are just about coping with. However, a key benefit of UBI is that the situation is stable and predictable for people on it. Currently, people who are jus…

You agree that UBI will not fix poverty and/or wealth inequality, as cost of living will rise exactly to the level necessary to guarantee "slight poverty," but are still a proponent? I would be interested to see evidence that it's the welfare system itself that causes these stressors, rather than the poverty itself, which is what you seem to be stating here. Why would that be the case?

Yes I am still a proponent. Though I don't think it's as simple as the economics simply adjusting to negate the benefits. I don't think that's true at all.

When people have a different quality of life and certainty about basics, that doesn't just affect those people. It affects other people throughout the rest of the economy too.

People who are poor or very poor often contribute a lot to the economy just like many other people. It just doesn't get the same recognition. Much of the work is invisible to people not actively looking for it. Probably the most clear examples are carers: Caring for their parents, their children, their ill, disabled and elderly friends and relatives. An astonishing amount of labour is performed by people who aren't paid to do it, sacrifice a lot to do it (e.g. many have little time for socialising and friends), and go largely unrecognised (after all they don't get out much, its unpaid, and its anything up to 24x7). A fair amount of cash or cash-equivalent is provided by the poor to the even poorer too, e.g. bringing over food, providing accomodation in a spare room.

I think the quality and level of the overall contribution to the general economy would improve with UBI ensuring some measure of stability and peace to people at the low end, or who are facing being at the low end (e.g. redundancy during COVID-19...). I also think there is a moral imperative to provide the basics for people if it's possible; a "dignity of every person" sort of thing.

I've seen what it's like for people who also have "welfare poverty", that is they can't access welfare reliably either. And I have seen people live on less than one meal a day for months as a result, saving their limited food stocks for good reason, and with no idea when their precarious housing will come to an abrupt end, and no bed to sleep on where they live, in a rich Western country.

I don't think it's welfare per se that causes the stressors mentioned, but rather the complex fear and uncertainties that are rightly associated with the common versions of it.

With regards to whether poverty should be seen as the cause, I think it is, but the degree of stress depends what kind of poverty you mean.

Having a low level of income that is absolutely predictable, in a stable price, food and housing environment, is a completely different experience from having no idea whether you will be able to eat next week or if the money will be suddenly taken away because someone saw you walk a metre in a park near your wheelchair and decided you are "fit for work" as a result, even if you can't walk 2m.

Both are experiences of poverty, but very different kinds of poverty.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the 'universal' part is the main thing people including policy makers have an issue with, and that's the bit not being tested.

Ehh, India is dipping their toes in without going full monty. It can be done progressively. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23258277 (HN: Indian farmers to get direct cash benefits)

And now in Spain.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23351708 (HN: Spain approves national minimum income scheme)

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