Richard M. Stallman resigns • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#741

Post by X6S1x6Okd1st » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

marble-drink wrote: post #505

I'm so relieved to find that at least on hacker news people can still evaluate this situation with reason. Out there it's a witch hunt and Stallman is now a witch. RMS is a great man but sadly has difficulties communicating with the wider world. This has been true of many great minds throughout history. It's sad to see it happen to one of my own heroes but I believe history will do him justice if we continue to fight…

This isn't the first time, I'd bet plenty of people have tried to advise him and he ignored them.

He's been speaking on these topics for long enough to have heard thousands of people consoling him to stop.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#742

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:52 PM UTC

chasing wrote: post #691

raxxorrax wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your "inclusivity" stops at Stallman, it seriously lacks performance. You use the wrong word. What you desire is conformity. edit: Additionally, because I think this isn't obvious here, Stallman opened up the knowledge about software to the whole world and put energy in keeping it that way. Anyone was able to profit from this.

> What you desire is conformity. Inasmuch as any organization must have a set of goals and principles that everyone within that organization must adhere to: Yes! No one has taken away Stallman’s freedom of speech.

[deleted]

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#743

Post by t0astbread » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:52 PM UTC

Regardless of whether it was right to ditch Stallman as the president of the FSF, here's my "wishlist" for his successor (in case they don't revert it):

- Someone who is less of a hardliner: Stallman's dedication to free software is a good thing but his absolutist style of expressing it might have put a lot of people off who would otherwise not be opposed to the idea of free software

- Someone who understands the problems of free/open source software (contributors not getting paid, corporate exploitation, ...) and has progressive solutions for it

- Someone who everyone can (at least kinda) sympathize with and/or relate to: I believe Stallman generally has no bad intent but a lot of his mannerisms are just plain awkward or offensive to a lot of people. Normally that wouldn't matter but the president of the FSF (especially Stallman) is kinda "the face of free software". So showing that the world of free software is a progressive and inclusive space here might just benefit everyone.

We should still honor Stallman for what he did for free software (I mean he basically invented it) and we should IMO continue to welcome him in this space (maybe even as some kind of executive in the FSF because after all he's obviously not incompetent). But maybe he isn't the best person for the role of the president anymore these days.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#744

Post by chris_wot » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:52 PM UTC

marble-drink wrote: post #505

I'm so relieved to find that at least on hacker news people can still evaluate this situation with reason. Out there it's a witch hunt and Stallman is now a witch. RMS is a great man but sadly has difficulties communicating with the wider world. This has been true of many great minds throughout history. It's sad to see it happen to one of my own heroes but I believe history will do him justice if we continue to fight…

Do you think he would have listened? Something tells me he would have spoken about it on principle, in that he believes in freedom of speech.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#745

Post by mieseratte » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #679

RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildl…

> I welcome anyone to provide a counter-argument.

Here's a counter. You're ascribing intent to one's writing, and unless you have a special relationship with Mr. Stallman - you don't know anything.

Because of a radical, illiberal mob, Stallman's life's work has been taken from him.

Few years ago I had had a Junior engineer on my team begin telling me how he finds certain speech so intolerable that he feels he has the right to assault someone for saying it. This is the reasoning behind these kinds of mob justices.

So now I see a mob hurting yet another life, not because of real-world conduct, but because of speech. I see real-world destruction wrought because of speech.

What never occurred to this young man was that there exist people who find the suppression of speech to be what is truly intolerable in this world. That this form of group-think is truly destructive, that actions are of consequence, not speech.

Do pray the pendulum never swings in your direction.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#746

Post by tossAfterUsing » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

ixtli wrote: post #717

colechristensen wrote: post #679

RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildl…

Let's be honest, the people who disagree with your comment are worried that eventually someone will out them for their terrible behavior as well! It's shocking to me how unaccustomed to being held accountable some people are. Here's a radical supposition: it's actually good when speech has consequences in society.

I disagree with Cole's comment, and i think yours is designed to suggest that my disagreement makes me an unaccountable creep.

That's totally bogus, and I think you should consider the consequences that your speech is already having on the people around you.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#747

Post by qaq » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

roguecoder wrote: post #724

syrrim wrote: post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He disagreed with the wording "assault" which he felt was ambiguous. He would almost certainly have been fine with the wording "had sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island". I'm sure a number of other wordings that call into question said girl's consent, the legal status of said girl on said private island with regards to sex, and so on would have been fine as well.

That is what “defending” means: he took objection to what Minsky allegedly did being accurately characterised as assault and a crime. Plenty of criminals take objection to their crimes being described as crimes, but “men should be allowed to have sex with underaged girls” is a particularly self-serving and gross position for a man in a position of power over young women to take.

for it to be accurate you have to look into the laws of a given jurisdiction. If you take EU 17 is age of consent in all countries but Vatican and Malta with a significant portion being significantly lower.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#748

Post by lanevorockz » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

eloff wrote: post #736

colechristensen wrote: post #679

RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildl…

How is it we value free speech, but there are certain discussions you just cannot have, even in a rational and measured way, without risking making yourself completely unemployable. You should be able to have a questionable viewpoint in a discussion, without worrying about the lynch mob ending your career. The consequences here are out of line. You can be reprimanded to take your discussions to a non company venue, i…

Completely agree with you and it makes me depressed that we are living on an age that we are giving up the imperfectness of humans in exchange for fake puritanism on a standard that cannot be achieved by anyone.

I bet everyone here has one opinion that can definitely and very quickly destroy their lives. Let people be wrong, let them speak, let them think ... We can then convince and converge into a common good. Cancelling the guy that gave his life for the cause is appalling and is showing how evil social media is.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#749

Post by amyjess » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:54 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #679

RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildl…

What he said, for posterity:

> "The most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing," Stallman wrote in his post last Wednesday. "Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates. I’ve concluded from various examples of accusation inflation that it is absolutely wrong to use the term 'sexual assault' in an accusation."

Source: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/09/17/richard_stallman_in...

[and in my opinion: it's the last sentence that made his statement wildly inappropriate. It's one thing if he wanted to raise the possibility that Minsky was deceived, and while incorrect it would be excusable, but his last sentence is a belligerent assumption of bad faith, and it is highly inappropriate for him to use such absolute language in denying sexual assault]

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#750

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:54 PM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #201

aazaa wrote: post #14

I've seen some online cheering Stallman's resignation from MIT. I suspect they'll also be cheering about this resignation as well. But this is nothing to cheer about. Regardless of what low regard the man might be held as a person, he's being persecuted for having expressing ideas, demanding proof of claims, advocating for objective standards, and asking questions. These are all hallmarks of scientific inquiry. It se…

It's 2019. Social justice and "cancel culture" are intrinsic values to open source now, at least as much as sharing code and collaboration. The situation with Brendan Eich shows that if you have the wrong political views, you are not considered fit to serve as the leader of any open-source organization or project. especially not one with corporate backing. It's too much of a risk of PR disaster. So be careful. Corali…

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