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Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

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Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#741

Post by eli_gottlieb »

astura wrote: post #300
cc81 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone is saying that there should be a law that forces Patreon to allow everyone on their platform. More a lamenting that the consequences of large platforms acting like this might be bigger than people think. Reminds me a little of the whole Parental Advisory thing with rock music or Spotify's decisions around violent artists. How outraged should we be that artists that say very questionable things ar…

For decades Walmart, the largest retailer in the world, exclusively sold censored music albums, yet nobody rioted over that, we all just knew not to buy our CDs there. I don't understand why people all the sudden believe they have a God given right to spew their garbage all over every platform in existence.... that's something very new. EDIT: Source: https://corporate.walmart.com/_news_/news-archive/2008/04/29... >MU…

>For decades Walmart, the largest retailer in the world, exclusively sold censored music albums, yet nobody rioted over that, we all just knew not to buy our CDs there.

Maybe you didn't riot over it. I thought it was blatantly censorious.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#742

Post by anigbrowl »

coffeemug wrote: post #338
zamalek wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The government, soapboxes, homes and places of business that are happy to have them. Freedom of Speech is not the right to be heard. If people don't like what you have to say, or how you are saying it, they are free to walk away. If you don't like what someone is doing in your place of business, you can also throw…

> Freedom of Speech is not the right to be heard. People keep saying this and repeating it, but as far as I can tell this meme is destructive and wrong. Freedom of speech isn't just a legal assurance that congress shall make no law abridging it. It is also a set of cultural norms rooted deeply in a long lineage of hard won ideas. It is Evelyn Hall's principle "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the de…

Popper and the paradox of tolerance have nothing to do with it because we aren't talking about fascists angling to march on Washington DC to burn down the Library of Congress. We're talking about people who may have made a careless remark, or have quirky ideas, or disagree with the overall bent of the arc of history.

Neo-fascism is a real phenomenon that kills real people and Patreon doesn't want to be associated with people who have that stink on them.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#743

Post by eesmith »

_Tev wrote: post #708
eesmith wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Whether they wrote" My point is that you said they did. If they actually did not, then it comes across like you are putting words into their mouth. Do you see how this comes across as part of a criticism which says they themselves are over-interpreting the data? "it seemed to me" And it seemed to me it was an outright racist statement. Even if somehow it was not, it was definitely an own-goal given the heavy scrutin…

> I cannot conceive of how anyone would think those phrases would result in useful, effective, or even interpretable irony or sarcasm. Well, that is the root of the disagreement (and one of the main issues with this whole fiasco). When you isolate opposing side enough, you can paint them in whatever way you want, because "I cannot understand them, therefore I assume worst interpretation possible" sounds so logical to…

Perhaps you are making the worst possible interpretation possible of my statements because it sounds so logical to you?

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#744

Post by dang »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #681
toufiqbarhamov wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s interesting, and weird when you consider that the people who seem to be railing against this supposed censorship share significant overlap in the Venn diagram of people who complain about a growing sense of entitlement among others. Ironically at some point these same people decided that they deserve to be published wherever they want, and anything else is censorship. Presumably these are people who felt even ha…

> in the Venn diagram The one you just made up from whole cloth? > Honestly though, I have another theory. Do you have an actual position, too?

This breaks the site guidelines and is unacceptable. If you can't post thoughtfully and respectfully, regardless of how wrong someone else may be, please don't post here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#745

Post by dang »

repolfx wrote: post #730
TheDong wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am perfectly fine with you saying "the homicide rate amongst Americans is much higher than amongst the Swiss". I would not be fine with the similar, but different phrase "American people are more homicidal than the swiss", assuming no further context. One of those is clearly meant to discuss a fact. The other is meant to play up nationalistic tensions. I know negative generalizations can be supported by fact. I'm f…

The distinction you're looking for doesn't exist. The two sentences would be considered equivalent by anyone who isn't wildly over-attuned to political correctness issues.

I don't agree with that, and it's relevant to this forum in an important way. There's a wide spectrum between my saying "that's false" or "you're mistaken", vs. saying "you're a liar". The distinction here is a similar one.

It doesn't need to be a moral distinction. When negative statements are made neutrally, discussion goes much better than when they are made pejoratively. This entire site, if not the entire internet, is evidence of that.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#746

Post by fzeroracer »

FakeComments wrote: post #604
Dylan16807 wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think almost anyone has faced consequences for being anti-vaccine. That's been extremely free-speech, and it hasn't helped people come to the right conclusions at all.

That’s just not true — consequences for not having their children vaccinated are legislated lots of places; the arguments against anti-vaxers are often appeals to the same authorities that happily over-prescribed opiates and based around shaming them; etc.

I do hope you realize that people being anti-vaccine can and does result in the deaths of completely innocent parties.

The consequences for people not vaccinating their kids goes beyond just belief. Even then in America we're incredibly lax on those people despite the fact that it seems to be growing movement fueled by quackery.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#747

Post by manfredo »

darawk wrote: post #685
manfredo wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One can argue when these terms were initially coined. But we do have hard data on when they became prevalent in the public mind. Look at the Google trends for "deplatforming"[1], "no platforming"[2] and "alt right"[3]. "No platforming" had some blips starting in the late 2000s, but begins rising significantly in 2015, "deplatforming" in January of 2016, and "alt right" in august of 2016. There is evidence to the clai…

> One can argue when these terms were initially coined. But we do have hard data on when they became prevalent in the public mind. Look at the Google trends for "deplatforming"[1], "no platforming"[2] and "alt right"[3]. "No platforming" had some blips starting in the late 2000s, but begins rising significantly in 2015, "deplatforming" in January of 2016, and "alt right" in august of 2016. There is evidence to the cl…

Sure, it reduced toxic content "elsewhere" but that "elsewhere" is limited to the same space that is administered by the same authority. Banning /r/coontown may have made posters in /r/politics less toxic, likely because they witnessed the shift in moderation policies. Also because racist users likely stopped using the service for posting racist content. But you're acting as though this means this content wasn't posted at all. For all we know, this just displaced it to 4chan, Gab, or something else.

Again, I agree that banning racist subreddits led to a reduction of racist content across the board on Reddit. But you're treating this as proof that said bans reduced racist content in society as a whole, which is a baseless claim even with the aforementioned analysis of the impact on other subreddits.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#748

Post by stcredzero »

notafraudster wrote: post #647
stcredzero wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being bullied out of social circles, shunned for behaving in socially unacceptable ways (like women wearing pants, being gay, accepting interracial marriage) including speaking socially unacceptable things (like women are objects, I choose not to vaccinate my child) If Patreon were trying to cultivate a "brand" on the side of shunning homosexuals, shaming women who wear pants, and denigrating interracial marriage, wo…

First, it's not hypocrisy to believe in protected classes but not wanting fascists to be one of them. I don't think businesses should be able to turn down customers on the basis of their race, I do think businesses should be able to turn down customers on the basis of their shirt saying "Race War Now" on it. No hypocrisy here. Second, even if we set aside protected classes, I don't think Patreon should be obligated t…

First, it's not hypocrisy to believe in protected classes but not wanting fascists to be one of them.

It's the height of dishonesty to purposely label people as fascists when they are not. It's also dishonest if you know someone isn't a fascist, but you go along with the the narrative because it's easier. At best, the case with Sargon of Akkad is that Patreon was honestly fooled.

I don't think Patreon should be obligated to host projects it doesn't agree with

Then Patreon and PayPal should bill themselves as something other than a "payment platform."

I'd sincerely hope that they'd cut off a hypothetical Patreon that exists just to enrich 4chan weirdos, and I'd work to achieve that goal in society. I would help any effort to shut down such a site.

You'd have a very different POV if it were people of your own tribe(s) who were being shut down in this fashion. (Which was pretty much the analogous case in the 60's when Berkeley was at the center of the Free Speech movement.) Then you would be singing the Free Speech message loud and clear. The reason why the concept of the right of Free Speech exists, is so that people who have power can't simply shut down everyone else.

Beware what political tools you let people have. One day, they may be turned against your side.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#749

Post by stcredzero »

bjourne wrote: post #639
stcredzero wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the lesson of the past, is that people who do the kind of suppression which Patreon is engaging in, which Pay Pal is engaging in, which people who ran "restricted" clubs engaged in -- the people doing these things are the ones who have decided that certain people are "undesirables" and are motivated by the darker side of human emotion. It's those who are on the wrong side of history. The right side is the sid…

That is not the same thing. The white supremacists are thrown off Patreon because of what they do not because of who they are . Their ideas aren't being suppressed.

The white supremacists are thrown off Patreon because of what they do not because of who they are.

The problem is this: The power you talk of is arbitrary. People like Sargon of Akkad, who are not white supremacists, are being thrown off Patreon, while the media are giving them cover by spinning a narrative. This is the classic pattern of oppression. You vilify people with a label, which becomes meaningless as the label is expanded to conveniently cover everyone who isn't toeing the line. This is exactly what happened with "counter-revolutionaries" and those who engaged in "economic sabotage" under the iron curtain.

Their ideas aren't being suppressed.

Lots of people want to fund Sargon of Akkad, who is a center-left classical liberal. Patreon, though it is a "funding platform," refuses. That is not only an example of suppression, it's an example of this kind of dishonest "expansion" of labels with media cover through inaccurate and convenient narratives. It's an example of the kind of dishonesty which happens when people in power think they can control speech and thought.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#750

Post by Jare »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #680
Jare wrote: post #299

"[...] all contentious speech or behavior will put the speaker or actor at risk of serious financial and social sanctions, and strip them of all defense,” Thing is, a lot of self-described "contentious" speech is putting other people at risk of serious financial, social, mental and physical harm. I believe in free speech and I believe that you can't successfully fight ideas by burying them, but I am also aware that I…

So, without knowing anything about the actual details, you have no doubt in your mind. And the livelihood of others is just to roll over, because you can't be bothered to actually look into it, before weighing in either way. So, what do you think you are practicing, here? If one were to look into history, with what would they find parallels, you think?

What part of "time and time again I find" was so unclear you had to bring out the "without knowing anything"s and the "can't be bothered"s.
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