Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#741

Post by monktastic1 » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 2:57 PM UTC

mehrdadn wrote: post #151

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite the opposite, I would think. Removing the gender references doesn't detract from the argument, so why have them at all?

I don't know, but what I'm asking is: if your real question is "why mention X's gender?" then why instead ask "why mention X's gender but not mention Y's gender?" ?

To put it another way: suppose I ask someone "why did you forget my birthday but not his?" It's not that I want them to forget his, too (though that is one literal interpretation). It's to suggest that the answer isn't merely "I forget birthdays in general."

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#742

Post by pier25 » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 2:57 PM UTC

> And a battery glued to the keyboard.

Indeed. I needed to replace the battery on a 2014 rMBP and I was quoted $350 because that meant replacing the whole top panel: battery, keyboard, and trackpad.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#743

Post by reitanqild » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 2:58 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #678

reitanqild wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You could install Linux on a 500€ laptop but you wouldn't have the keyboard or screen quality of the Macbook, nor would have access to the Apple ecosystem. I used a 2009 MacBook pro for close to 3 years. The following are my opinions, they are not valid for everyone but for some of us they are very valid: Keyboard had ctrl in a different spot than every other keyboard I ever spent significant time with. (Disclaimer…

> Keyboard lacked home, end ^A, ^E, just like on a terminal or Emacs. ^K deletes to the end of the line.

Learned that.

But it doesn't compose with shift for selection.

I also learned and still use the official workaround for that which is pretty nice often: shift + arrow up/down while on start/end of a line

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#744

Post by pc86 » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 2:58 PM UTC

fragmede wrote: post #731

pc86 wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or the alternative, paying attention.

It's not like anyone might want to take notes or something.

> Earlier in meetings we can go about silently browsing or replying to emails.

The complaint was not about taking notes, it was about being unable to ignore the speaker and reply to emails during a meeting.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#745

Post by throwaway5752 » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 2:59 PM UTC

janekm wrote: post #473

throwaway5752 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the story of Coach (now Tapestry, ticker TPR) should be the ghost story they tell at every Apple corporate retreat. What do they say, "years to build and seconds to destroy"?

What happened to Coach? I seem to have missed that news, and from what I saw in NYC they are currently moving into extremely expensive real estate so I thought they were doing rather well?

It's generally believed that they diluted their brand by overexpansion into outlet channels. From 2012-2015 their stock got cut by more than half ($80 down to $30) while the broader market was up ~25%.

I would summarize what happened as they stopped being "cool". The (subjectively) not so attractive Coach bags covered with "C" branding were multiple hundreds of dollars and a luxury good. When everyone was wearing one and you could pick up a cheap last season one at the outlet mall, the cachet was gone.

The value of the brand is when you can charge more for something of identical quality, or that people ask for your product by name. Apple's brand is (should be?) golden to them and they should treasure it. It's not based on cosmetics but quality, too.

tl;dr - Coach is still around and recovering and making billions of dollars.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#746

Post by seanalltogether » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 3:01 PM UTC

no1youknowz wrote: post #408

Apple. This issue is seriously simple. Take the previous design, you know the one from late 2012 to 2015. If you must (sigh), take out the SD card, HDMI, USB A, MagSafe and replace with USB-C. I don't know who suggested this, but whatever. Don't add in a touch bar. Don't add in an over sized touchpad. Leave the keyboard alone. The layout of the model is amazing. I purchased a late 2012 in Jan '13. It's been my daily…

4K doesn't really make sense, the screen is already 3K at 15", a typical 4K monitor will be 21"- 24" across and 5K would start at 27"

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#747

Post by DoofusOfDeath » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 3:04 PM UTC

_hardwaregeek wrote: post #103

manigandham wrote: post #79

Apple biggest UX failures always stem from putting form before function. There is a lower limit to thinness/lightness before consumers just don't care, and it was passed long ago. There was great progress made with the unibody Macbook Pros and the Macbook Airs but these latest models are so thin that it's actually annoying and leads to issues like poor battery life, lack of repair-ability, and malfunctioning keyboard…

On one hand I'm inclined to agree with you. Thin is not always better. On the other hand I'm holding my 3 pound Macbook Pro comfortably and easily. It's light enough that I don't have to think about slipping it into my day bag (something I did think about with the previous iteration) and thin enough to easily grip with one hand and walk around. When I was traveling, there wasn't even a question about whether I would…

> On one hand I'm inclined to agree with you. Thin is not always better. On the other hand I'm holding my 3 pound Macbook Pro comfortably and easily.

I see what you did there. Nice.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#748

Post by DoofusOfDeath » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 3:06 PM UTC

QasimK wrote: post #391

eric-hu wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own a 2012 MacBook pro 15' and work gave me a 2016. The difference is about 1.5 pounds, going from 5.6 pounds to 4 pounds. The difference is big enough that I've slowly started using my work laptop for most of my personal needs too, even though I initially wanted to keep my work laptop clean of unnecessary personal data.

Are you sure it’s not also because the 2016 laptop is more performant?

Is that the same as "faster"? Serious question.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#749

Post by fhood » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 3:08 PM UTC

symfoniq wrote: post #738

roystonvassey wrote: post #586

I am a huge fan of Apple's products and never understood the fuss when the new Pro Keyboard attracted bad press, reading it on my old, robust pre-2015 era Macbook. Until now. I got the new one at my job three months back. And, here I am, still struggling with and super annoyed with the missed keystrokes (the buttons are so thin/don't press properly), the almost non-existent 'Enter' keys (seriously, who messes with th…

Same boat. Against my better judgement, I bought a 2017 MacBook Pro about 6 months ago to make it easier to work with a client. I sold it this week at a big loss. Between the terrible keyboard, the useless Touch Bar, and the dongle hell, and general hardware flakiness, this was the worst laptop I've ever owned, Apple or otherwise (and I've owned almost every Apple laptop generation since the PowerBook G3). Good ridda…

Literally praying that they fix this crap in the next update. My mbp is getting on in years, and if they don't do something I'm going to move to linux for my next machine.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#750

Post by Joeri » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 3:12 PM UTC

sanderjd wrote: post #740

ender89 wrote: post #728

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more like Steve Jobs was such an uncompromising asshole that he would rather throw a substandard product in the garbage than put out something he considered lesser. He didn't have vision, nothing he "made" was revolutionary at all, and he didn't make anything after the NeXT. Steve Jobs was amazing at two things: getting in on the ground floor (the iphone came out so quickly after the first all touch screen smart…

What was the original? My memory of the time was seeing a bunch of cool Microsoft Surface demos, thinking "someone is gonna make a killing putting this on a phone", and the iPhone coming out a few months later. I'll go so far as to say that I think it was the first touch screen phone that was actually manufactured and sold. But I'll be very curious to be proven wrong!

The LG prada phone was 6 months earlier than the iphone demo and was all-touch with a capacitive screen. LG claimed apple ripped off their design, but I think it’s more a case of hardware evolving to the point this became possible and both companies implementing, but LG releasing a less ambitious product sooner.