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They Used To Last 50 Years

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Re: They Used To Last 50 Years

#741

Post by M_Grey »

brazzledazzle wrote: post #392
colhom wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of James May and manufactured items of yore vs today, he recently did a series where he puts together a bunch of old stuff. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=james+may+reass...

I'm really enjoying episode 1 so far. There's something almost therapeutic about it.

I agree... it's mildly amusing, mildly engaging, mildly informative... it's just mild in the best possible way. It actually feels a bit like looking over someone's shoulder in a workshop, in a pleasant way.

Re: They Used To Last 50 Years

#742

Post by emodendroket »

rhino369 wrote: post #684
emodendroket wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you never rented or something? Landlords don't expect tenants to take care of the appliances and buy the cheapest crap out there.

This is the big difference between "luxury" apartments and "lower income" apartments. The Luxury buildings slap in high end appliances and some granite countertenors and BAM it costs 500 dollars more a month.

I rented a "luxury" apartment for a while and despite the faux-granite countertops the appliances were still pretty low-end. They were newer but still about the cheapest models you could get of everything.

Re: They Used To Last 50 Years

#743

Post by zymhan »

vanderZwan wrote: post #733

I wonder if switching to a model of renting appliances wouldn't improve this situation? If I rent out an appliance I want my hardware to last, and I have an incentive for the hardware to be good at the same time or I might lose customers to someone else.

You mean turning appliance manufacturers into washing-machine fleet operators? Why would they do that to themselves?

Otherwise, there are already private companies that buy appliances and rent them out to consumers. They maybe be affordable in the short term, but will cost you much more in the 2+ year outlook.

Re: They Used To Last 50 Years

#744

Post by emodendroket »

aurizon wrote: post #731
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid your corollary won't apply; the lowest wages will just move elsewhere. There already was a company in China that moved production to the US because of wages there (plus transport costs, etc). I could see countries in Africa become the next manufacturing powerhouse(s), direct access to major seaways to both the US, Europe and Asia, etc. I don't know if they have the natural resources though, or the politica…

Ever notice how the high cost of wages in the USA combined with RORO car carriers ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roll-on/roll-off ) to lose 85% of the UAW jobs in the USA? They allowed very low cost sea transport to the USA. The UAW constant striking for wages, perks and pensions (now close to $75 per hour)and other labor restrictive rules threw away 85% of their members jobs. This was an unintended consequence of g…

Yep, there is absolutely no way whatsoever policy could have prevented that from happening. It's all the fault of workers and there is no choice but for all of us to reduce our standard of living to compete with the world's most destitute places.

Re: They Used To Last 50 Years

#745

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

PeterisP wrote: post #740
Pigo wrote: post #721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me wonder if the people at the top could handle expecting less, could trends reverse themselves and more people benefit, or if it's beyond them with too many other factors to consider. Does it really all come down to "We have to grow every quarter or die"?

In any competitive market if one manufacturer decides to stray far from optimal behavior for such reasons, it won't even last a decade before their competitors overtake them (no matter if simply taking their marketshare, or with literal buyouts, or by taking over their assets in a bankruptcy/restructuring sale) and reverse those practices. If the industry margin is e.g. 10%, then you might assume more beneficial prac…

I don't know why you're being downvoted. The board of directors exists to maximize profits, not create a stable society. As long as greater profits can be achieved by gutting the lower and middle classes, it will happen. To create change, the government must step in, which is almost impossible since the major corporations of this country have lobbied so much and spread so much propaganda.

Re: They Used To Last 50 Years

#746

Post by pimlottc »

nathantotten wrote: post #151
pcurve wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem is more complex. It's not that people 'want' to buy cheap stuff. That's the mistake PC laptop makers made for 20 years, collective racing to the bottom until they figured out ways to produce $300 laptop. But they eventually learned that a large consumer base had no problem paying $1200 for a MacBook. It turns out, people were willing to pay substantially more for a better product. Now, PC makers a…

Also, on average people move houses every 7 years in the US (give or take based on age) and it is typical for the appliances to stay with the house. This means the original owner/buyer is pretty unlikely to see the appliance fail before they sell the house. The next owner might, but will buy a new one and then move before it fails. Repeat...

Not to mention that warranties on major appliances or home products are often either explicitly or practically non-transferrable to new owners. The previous owners of my house had the basement waterproofed but I can't makes claims under the warranty unless I pay a yearly fee!

Re: They Used To Last 50 Years

#747

Post by mywittyname »

gmac wrote: post #691
selimthegrim wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See also: the story of Volkswagen AG and its parts for American vs European cars (esp Passats)

Reference? A quick search brought up not much.

VW aggressively cuts costs and reduces quality of their American products. The American Passat is different than the European Passat, we get the Euro Passat in the US as the CC. VW also massively decontented the Jetta a few years ago to better compete with the Japanese cars. Despite the car reviewer universally chastising VW for making their cars feel "cheap", Jetta sales skyrocketed.

This is not just a VW thing. For the longest time Honda did the same thing: European Accord were sold in the US as Acuras while the US got it's own special Accord.

This is probably due more to the high vehicle taxes and lower volumes of Europe than it is an inherent "cheapness" with Americans.

Re: They Used To Last 50 Years

#748

Post by mindslight »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #700
expnsv_hdphns wrote: post #512

When I went to the first semester of engineering school at the University of Wisconsin - Madison, there was a class called Engineering Professional Development 160: Introduction to Engineering. One of the early class sessions was a lecture from a guy at a power tool company, making some kind of jigsaw or handheld cutting tool. He explicitly told us, paraphrasing, "You don't want to make your product too reliable, bec…

Except its rare to see actual documented proof that this is a real practice in reputable industry. Sure it must happen (or seem to happen as a unintended effect), but from a rational perspective if Samsung does this then I'll switch to LG, thus costing Samsung business and reputation. I have no brand loyalty so it doesn't make sense to make unreliable products. I, like any consumer, get pissed off and I switch to oth…

> more efficient [electric motor] designs are simply more delicate

Nope. This argument works for portable power tools (lighter designs are more delicate), but not for stationary motors. The efficiency gains for stationary motors have primarily come from better drive circuitry.

> running closer to their optimal maximum which means ... running hotter in general

This is utterly wrong. The maximum power is defined by the amount of copper (and thermal resistance to ambient), which is constrained by cost/weight. Warmer windings actually mean higher ohmic losses, so the manufacturer's savings actually mean higher electricity consumption.

> I recently read that ... your average ceiling fan was something like 30% efficient up until fairly recently

Citation needed, especially with your implication that this was due to the motor itself (as opposed to say shape of blades and electrical power factor)

Re: They Used To Last 50 Years

#749

Post by jaclaz »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #584
PietdeVries wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could it be that the lifespan of a appliance is shortened because it his to be more energy-efficient? The old fridges (and car-engines, or antything) were not very economic. A few decades ago getting 10 km per liter of petrol was more or less standard. Now the engine with the same cilinders (1.6 liter for instance) easily get as much as 20 km for the same liter of petrol. The engine is highly optimized by cutting awa…

I have to disagree with this premise as it pertains to automobile engines. Automobile engines have improved tremendously in "lifespan" or Time Before OverHaul. In the '70's and '80's it was a challenge to get an engine to last 100,000 miles. They needed frequent oil changes, spark plugs replaced, had other short-life wearable parts (ignition parts), water pumps to replace, fuel pumps to replace, alternators went bad,…

As a corollary, consider how much fuel (particularly diesel) and much more than that oil (lubricating oil) have bettered around those times.

AFAICT in "practical" mechanical engineering tribology:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribology

is one of the fields that made the most progresses in the 90's, thanks also to the introduction on the market of totally or partially sinthetic oil, that literally changed the game when it comes to car engines duration.

The (huge) difference in spark plug life depends more on electronic ignition, of course and that also became mainstream in late 80's and 90's.

When it comes to water pumps, allow me to disagree, however, once upon a time if a water pump leaked you just changed gaskets and maybe the ball bearings, since around the same time you are often forced to buy a new "whole" pump as they are not any more serviceable.

Re: They Used To Last 50 Years

#750

Post by Retric »

gambiting wrote: post #419
Retric wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are picking an unusually high end example. http://www.aei.org/publication/appliance-shopping-1959-vs-20... 200$ in 1959 for a washer = 1600$ today inflation adjusted. So yes I can go on Best Buy's website and pick a mid range washing machine for 1/2 the price. And yes there are plenty of cheaper examples, but the mid range cost in no way justifies 1/5 the the lifespan.

He said a washer dryer. I can buy a brand new Hotpoint washer for about $250, but you won't find a washer dryer for that price. Also, a sidenote - that Hotpoint washer comes with a free 10 year parts warranty - you have to pay for the engineer to come and install it, but Hotpoint will replace any part of the washer for free, or give you a new one if they can't fix it.

Washing machines cost between $250 and $2,050; dryers cost anywhere from $200 to $1,750. http://www.kitchens.com/product-guide/washers-dryers/washer-...

And people complain the average machine does not last 10 years. So, unless you found the cheapest washing machine from 1950's it's not exactly a direct comparison.

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