A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing • Hacker News Board

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#741

Post by MicroBerto » Wed, May 04, 2016, 2:39 AM UTC

jotux wrote: post #661

MicroBerto wrote: post #202

In the early 1970s, animal behaviorist John Calhoun built a "mouse utopia" to see what would happen if he created the perfect world for mice, with unlimited food, starting with four males and four females, that could reach a population of 2500. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z760XNy4VM What happened next is absolutely astonishing. When the mice had nothing to do and nothing to work for, their society collapsed upon…

The problem with your argument is that basic income isn't anything like a utopia or perfect world -- it's just enough to pay rent and buy food. Basic income for people is much closer to the treatment pet owners are expected to provide for their pets.

And as I mentioned elsewhere, "free rent and free food" was basically exactly what the rats were given in their utopia.

All I'm saying is this: Before we start throwing free money around everywhere, maybe we should do some legitimate research on the human condition. I'm obviously confident that you won't like what you find, but at least you'll find out before it's too late.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#742

Post by marknutter » Wed, May 04, 2016, 2:57 AM UTC

contravariant wrote: post #279

MicroBerto wrote: post #202

In the early 1970s, animal behaviorist John Calhoun built a "mouse utopia" to see what would happen if he created the perfect world for mice, with unlimited food, starting with four males and four females, that could reach a population of 2500. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z760XNy4VM What happened next is absolutely astonishing. When the mice had nothing to do and nothing to work for, their society collapsed upon…

>I'd rather see unproductive humans digging and re-filling holes in the ground than getting paid to do nothing. Or something like the biking experiment in Black Mirror. I'd rather people get paid to do nothing than people getting paid to do pointless tasks. I've seen some amazing things people made in their spare time, but I can't imagine anyone making something worthwhile digging and re-filling holes.

Come on now.. anyone from 100 years ago would look at half the jobs people have now and categorize them as "pointless tasks"

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#743

Post by marknutter » Wed, May 04, 2016, 2:59 AM UTC

MicroBerto wrote: post #740

JDiculous wrote: post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If basic income only provides enough to just get by - living in a crappy apartment, barely being able to afford basic groceries, and living paycheck to paycheck, do you really think everyone is just going to stop working and do nothing all day? People are still going to want money for buying gadgets, going out, a better living space, cars, clothes, vacations, impressing girls, buying toys for their kids, etc. Also I'…

> do you really think everyone is just going to stop working and do nothing all day? YES. That's exactly the point. Look at the welfare class currently collecting disability in American states like WV. They aren't doing anything productive!!! Maybe more drugs, though... sounds great for society. Let's expand that. Will Everyone drop out of the workforce? Of course not. But a substantial portion that will become an ev…

Look no further than Indian reservations that have casino stipends.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#744

Post by marknutter » Wed, May 04, 2016, 3:02 AM UTC

zyxley wrote: post #594

MicroBerto wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It means enough money to cover rent, utilities and food. Umm yeah, that's exactly what they gave to the mice. The fact that it hasn't been replicated is extremely concerning, and makes me wonder why.

> Umm yeah, that's exactly what they gave to the mice. Yes, without any opportunity to get involved in anything more than that. "Here, live in this box forever, you get all the food pellets and water you want, but you can never leave and don't get anything entertaining to do" would drive any animal insane. Take a look at animals behaving pathologically in boring zoo enclosures, for example. A study actually analogous…

Wait, so the government is going to provide us with a the equivalent of a steady supply of wheels, toys, puzzles, mazes, tastier treats, etc?

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#745

Post by marknutter » Wed, May 04, 2016, 3:08 AM UTC

mcv wrote: post #142

lackingcaffeine wrote: post #128

I think the idea of a basic income is really interesting though one aspect of it troubles me and I would be interested to hear HN's solutions to it. The trouble lies in the creative and economic relationship. If a substantial number of people reduce or stop their usual working hours and live off the income to pursue entirely creative activities, such as making a website or art, they are exempt from the usual capitali…

I think most people will continue to work, simply because people generally like having more money. What will stop is degrading bullshit jobs for little pay. Businesses that rely on those jobs will disappear, unless they manage to make their jobs more attractive. Businesses will have to work harder to attract employees, because employees are less desperate for work. More of the profit will go to employees, less to upp…

So then all those businesses raise the cost of their goods and services to attract employees who demand higher wages and better working conditions, effectively wiping out the net benefit of UBI in the first place.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#746

Post by marknutter » Wed, May 04, 2016, 3:11 AM UTC

habosa wrote: post #560

WWKong wrote: post #542

How does a universal basic income work from economics stand point? Let's say everyone gets $1000/mo. Currently the market knows that everyone has $10 and prices bread accordingly at $1.50. Tomorrow the market will know that everyone has $1010 and will price the bread at $100. Thus everything from food to utilities to rent gets adjusted to the new normal and the poor can't still afford the basics. Is this theory not c…

Take a step further. Let's say on day 1 of the basic income age all the bread merchants raise their price to $100. One smart bread merchant will probably say "Hey I used to sell this for $1.50, I can do better than $100" and prices it at $90. Now everyone buys bread from him. The other merchants feel the price pressure and the cycle continues, with the price settling down to something likely higher than $1.50 (to ref…

Labor is wrapped up in the intrinsic value of things. Gold is only intrinsically valuable after it has been extracted, therefore its labor costs are included in the price. Don't believe me? What happens to the price of gold when it suddenly becomes much easier to mine for it?

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#747

Post by MicroBerto » Wed, May 04, 2016, 3:19 AM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #636

MicroBerto wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding inflation... if everyone instantly has $X now, doesn't $X become worthless? For instance, why would landlords not raise rents knowing that everyone now has this cash?

In the short term, inflation does happen. This is because the economic allocations were done according to the old distribution of incomes, which is to say disproportionately benefiting the desires of the rich. Demand changes while supply remains the same. So lower-income housing landlords do raise their rents. Grocery stores raise prices on their beef. Low-end used cars get more expensive. More dollars chase the same…

This is easily the best response I've seen to all of my questions, but it is all extremely optimistic and untested. There are always unforseen side effects whenever you steer the market in new ways.

I would strongly urge that we carry out smaller scale experiments / split tests before anyone commits nationwide.

I envision a deepening of the social divide, as the uneducated and unskilled further separate from the educated. Within very few generations you would be left with an unrecognizable society.

Everyone here is looking at it from the lens of the intelligent hopeful tech entrepreneur. That's lovely, but we are the extreme minority.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#748

Post by dcacaac » Wed, May 04, 2016, 3:34 AM UTC

lackingcaffeine wrote: post #128

I think the idea of a basic income is really interesting though one aspect of it troubles me and I would be interested to hear HN's solutions to it. The trouble lies in the creative and economic relationship. If a substantial number of people reduce or stop their usual working hours and live off the income to pursue entirely creative activities, such as making a website or art, they are exempt from the usual capitali…

> they are exempt from the usual capitalist status quo which forces a venture to be good, popular and eventually profitable

I think you're making a lot of assumptions here. Does the pressure to make money force a venture to be good? Certainly some products are not good, and we have many examples open source projects that are fantastic. Plus there is still social pressure to be doing interesting things with your time, but it's my guess that very creative people don't even need any outside encouragement.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#749

Post by nihonde » Wed, May 04, 2016, 3:41 AM UTC

aninhumer wrote: post #728

nihonde wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I see it every day in Japan. Elderly people, many of whom had distinguished careers, are up early in the morning to clean the streets——and believe me, this happens everywhere in Japan because there is no litter, no dead leaves, nothing. And you will see the same almost everywhere in Japan. I met a retired Toyota engineer who was an expert in the hydrogen fuel-cell technology that is now in the Toyota Mirai.…

I do wonder if the job-for-life culture in Japan helps with this. Perhaps, rather than people being lazy because they can get away with it, not being terrified of losing your job means they can actually appreciate it, and learn to take pride in their work.

Probably that, plus a decent safety net of social services, plus teaching children to take responsibility, clean up, etc. Lots of factors involved, but the good news is that it can be done.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#750

Post by hderms » Wed, May 04, 2016, 3:47 AM UTC

MicroBerto wrote: post #406

drabiega wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's not how markets work. The ones that try would loose all their business to those that didn't.

The amount of wishful thinking in this thread makes me question how many of you have actually functioned in the real world. Have you ever met a group of landlords? Ever talk to any who deal with low income housing? You honestly think they care about "losing business" in a market that they absolutely control and have extremely high demand?

Letting apartments just sit around unrented isn't a very profitable strategy, even if you occasionally can extract more money out of someone than who is willing to pay an inflated rate.