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Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

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Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#731
Hihi people o/ my two cents here...

So, I have lived in Frankfurt for a couple of years now, and after talking with so many other expats, I think I have come up with a solid reason why this happens and why I am also thinking about leaving Germany. My TLDR is that Germany makes it really hard to settle down. When you are a skilled worker and you decide to come to Germany, you feel that things in your home country are holding you back, so you move here to step up, to upgrade, to move forward. And that is not what you find here.

- You drove in your previous country? Good luck getting your driver's license in Germany (I know people living in the Netherlands and Italy who have been driving since their first month there), and good luck paying so much for parking. And then, you might say: "but use public transportation". And I reply, good luck going for a dinner with your gf when it 0 degrees outside and raining to get the metro that has less availability (because it is evening already) or they are doing some maintenance in the line. In my experience here, public transportation is only good when is working hours. In Frankfurt, after working hours they reduce itinerary of a metro and during weekends - hahahaha - you would cry with me.

- You want to buy a house? Good luck finding a bank that wants to finance you without a credit history in Germany (a friend already bought a house in the Netherlands, btw). Want to rent a place? Good luck finding someone to rent their house to someone who just arrived in Germany.

- Do you have doubts or problems with bureaucracy? So cute... good luck with that too. Workers in public service do not speak English, and those who do don't want to speak English with you (and that is with me living in Frankfurt - one of the most international cities in Germany). Not even in the Ausländerbehörde do they speak English. (I am ok if the waitress in the cafeteria doesn't speak it, but not in the Ausländerbehörde).

- Then you think: "ok, let's learn the language...". Germany is the most expensive country to learn its own language that I've ever seen. I studied in France and they were teaching French for free there. All the free/cheap German courses here are not for skilled workers, because with a skilled worker's wage, you are above the threshold for social benefits and all the cheap alternatives are out of the question. Then, you might say: "but you can learn online". Fair point, but how do you expect people to connect with your country by learning online? For me, it was way cheaper to pay a professional teacher in my home country online to have individual classes than to attend a German class here.

- You have a problem in your house? Good luck waiting years for it to be "solved". I have full experience with this: we had an issue with the roof of the building and it literally took them more than 2 years to solve it. Because the roof belongs to the building and not the apartment, it is not the landlord's responsibility, and you need to find out who is responsible for it, etc.

And, on top of all this, Germany is not a cheap country to live in, and the infrastructure is far from ideal: trains are always late and expensive, and you cannot rely on DB anymore. Internet is super expensive and slow (we have a bunch of data centers in Frankfurt, but you have no fiber connection in the houses here). Energy is stupidly expensive now (due to German politicians eating shit for breakfast).

So... overall, I think skilled workers think about leaving after some years because small issues stack up, and in the end, you are not able to build a life here. And I don't even want to get into the topic of making friends here, maybe in another post.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Outside of Germany, what exact benefit does the German language get you? German is also official language in Austria, Switzerland and Luxembourg. In many neighbouring countries it is also often well-understood and/or there exist language minorities. > English is the global lingua franca From my professional experience I can tell that depending on the countries or persons from countries that you deal with, Spanish,…

"So, calling English the global lingua franca is in my opinion rather based on a selection bias on specific countries." In software, if you don't speak English, you don't really exist. Same for pilots and some other industries. Spanish programmers will need to learn English even for jobs in Spain. I have no idea what you are talking about.

Other big industries. Finance and banking switches to English the moment you deal with anything international. Academic publications and conferences in many fields are heavily tilted towards English. You have more specialist textbooks in English than in any other language in many fields.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#733
post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was a regular thing for Americans or anyone in the world to be able to make a Swiss account? Is that not the case? Or is it different if you live there?

If you are not a resident, don’t bother trying unless you plan to have 30M or more in the account. If you are a resident, you can easily open a normal account in minutes… unless you are US, Russian or Belarus citizen.

I've opened (and used) a Dukascopy account with neither a Swiss passport nor even setting foot in Switzerland.

And I can vouch I had significantly less than 30M haha.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#734
post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have any identical comparisons of politeness in London and the rest of the UK, but subjectively I do feel people in London are more likely to hold doors, let me skip queues, etc. There's just more of a feeling that we're all trying to navigate life in the city together, rather than gatekeeping each other's presence in it. It's even more noticeable with people who are paid to be polite: bar and waiting staff,…

> It's even more noticeable with people who are paid to be polite: bar and waiting staff, the folks working at Tesco, pub security, the kebab man. I walk into a pub in the middle of nowhere in England, they treat me like I'm intruding or inconveniencing them. I do that in London, they just ask "What are you having love?". It's funny I find the complete opposite. I've been in London visiting for a week and it's been a…

> What did you have shared with the man in Bangor or the pub staff elsewhere in England?

That's the point of being polite, treating people decently even if you have little in common.

Clearly we have different experiences and that's fine, we both seem to have found where we're comfortable.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#735
post #206

Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep re…

FWIW, for Blue Card holders, after 27 months the language requirement drops to A1 and even if you don't have a Blue Card after five years you could also get an EU permanent residence without language requirement: https://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/visa-residence/living-... Though I would recommend setting yourself a target of some small (≈10) number of new words to learn every day and practice them during your com…

Learning 10 words a day is not a small amount. Unless you count conjugations.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#736
post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you talking about refugees, not regular migration. People who migrate need to deposit thousands of Euros, at least when they come for training in health care sector (nurse or doctor). You can also come if you have an offer from a German company or a very good outlook to get one. In any case, you are not allowed to stay if you don't work for a longer period of time. I can't believe how many don't know about th…

> I think you talking about refugees, not regular migration. I'm surprised I need to explain this, but refugees are also migrants. They're using one of many visa pathways. This conversation highlights the issue with this discussion: many intersecting issues. As you point out: Europe has made it incredibly easy for refugees to immigrate (most of whom, depending on the country of origin, do not ever enter the workforce…

I agree and apparently we don't even have good terms that show the difference of the two groups.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#737
post #296

Berlin is one the cheapest capital cities in Europe. As such it attracts a huge amount of immigrants. That low cost is reflected in the pay. An experienced full stack developer would be fortunate to get 90-95k euro annually. That is plenty of money if you intend to stay in Berlin, but is not something you can save up and build a future with or transfer to another country. Also, housing is a huge problem there and it…

> 90-95k euro annually. [..] but is not something you can save up and build a future with or transfer to another country.

Nice disconnect from reality.

90k is more than twice the median income in Germany, and by extension, more than twice the median income of most European countries.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#738

I am the son of a (Cuban) immigrant and a German woman. Once, the police asked me if I spoke German, probably because my hair is dark and my eyes are brown. Germany has a bias against “southerners”—the darker your skin, the worse it is. If your skin is light and your eyes are light-colored, you won’t even be perceived as an immigrant as long as you keep your mouth shut. But if you look southern or Asian, you’ll alway…

I couldn't help but notice that your post also contains bias against German people.

[dead]

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#739
post #376
post #58

As an outsider, but hailing from Germany's eastern neighbor and one of the largest sources of immigrants: Overall sentiment is that the juice ain't worth the squeeze any more. Back when my country became a full member of Schengen(2008) the ratio of GDP per capita between Germany and us was around 3.3x - salaries were roughly proportionally higher, so just about any job was worth moving there and potentially going thr…

Will this overall sentiment actually be confirmed with migration numbers if we check them?

Yes.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#740
post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mate, learn German and be happy they don't ask for B2 or C1. If I move to China and want the nationality, it's absolutely normal that one expects me to speak Chinese. As an Ausländer (who reached C1), I am surprised that you are not talking about the other actual and terrible problems the german society is facing: an aging population relying on immigrants to fill in the gaps, taxes everywhere without the advantage…

> without the advantages of a strong social system Wut? Germany is socialism personified.

You should check Norway, Denmark, France or even Turkey
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