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Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

reuters.com

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Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#731

Post by softwaredoug »

One thing I think about a lot is how these companies metered coding / work. They want the economy to go through them.

I just don’t see how the economy tolerates that. We’re already seeing people getting more conservative about their token spend. Even if Chinese open models went away, the pressure to create something else and put price pressure on the current duopoly will just intensify.

I see these companies are scrambling to find whatever moat they can. It’s not a good sign for them if regulatory capture becomes that moat.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#732

Post by windexh8er »

tristanj wrote: post #25

Here's what is happening: Chinese resellers are offering Claude tokens at 70-90% below official Anthropic API prices. They achieve this by reselling capacity from pooled Claude Max accounts, payments fraud, and also reselling the model output & reasoning chains to various Chinese labs. They are subsidizing model access in exchange for user logs and reasoning traces, which they then sell as training data, allowing the…

Even if what you say is the truth (I don't think that is what's actually happening) it sounds to me like fair play capitalism working as intended! I guess when you rip off the entire Internet and then turn around and complain about getting ripped off nobody cares or feels for you. If there's a master class in getting the entire world to hate you then both Sam and Dario will be the prime examples.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#735

Post by windexh8er »

gruez wrote: post #140
gaiagraphia wrote: post #115

This is great for competition! Chinese vendors offering a cheaper solution = what economics told me the free market was all about. I also learnt that Anthropic should get better at what they do if they want to compete. If not, somebody else will win. Or does this not apply to huge US corporations any more?

>This is great for competition! Chinese vendors offering a cheaper solution = what economics told me the free market was all about. Yeah, like all those Chinese bootleggers selling DVDs for a few dollars rather than $20. Free market! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48664814

Except Anthropic didn't produce the movie.

So it's more like one bootlegger sold the DVD for $20 and their competitors are undercutting them for $1. Who's the bigger thief here now?

Capitalism as intended!

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#737

Post by __rito__ »

eunos wrote: post #587
protimewaster wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The AI companies seem to take the viewpoint that everything on the internet is free, except their stuff. It's okay to hammer some random website with AI crawlers, ignoring robots.txt, and causing bandwidth costs to skyrocket. But if you cost an AI provider money with your data acquisition practices, well, that's just clearly unacceptable.

Anthropic, Dario especially seems have eternal grudge against China as a concept, that remind me of Thiel.

Coming from him, I am not sure even that is real. It could very easily (and plausibly) be a part of the ongoing hype drama.

"Our models so precious, US Gov has to revoke access to foreigner." - tuned up version: "Our models so advanced our #1 adversary is desperately stealing it from us."

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#738

Post by api »

AI is awesome tech but it’s also to some extent mass piracy. The models are trained on huge amounts of material with dubious or non existent rights.

I have a hard time being concerned about “you pirated my piracy.”

I hold the view that many of these models should not be copyrightable. Anthropic and all the others talk about “safety” but you never hear them bring up attribution of the data that trained the model or compensation of anyone for it.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#739

Post by crispyambulance »

anon373839 wrote: post #380
0xbadcafebee wrote: post #11

There's two basic kinds of distillation: 1) the massive [and dumb] method where you ask a question and use the answer as reinforcement (Black Box), and 2) more targeted distillation where you use one model to directly inform/train/guide another model (RLAIF). The latter is basically fine-tuning the model with direction from another model. Thousands of businesses do this every day to fine-tune. This is almost certainl…

> These complaints of distillation are inflating the problem to make it sound worse than it is Unfortunately, the Reuters piece itself is complicit in this dramatization. The lede paragraph parrots Anthropic's talking point that distillation is an "attack", without using quotes that would alert the reader that this framing is a corporate talking point. Distillation is NOT an attack.

The standard of neutrality that people here pretend to require from news organizations is not even remotely realistic.

It was a timely story from Reuters. They do fast news feeds, like APnews. Could it have been better or more accurate? Sure, they could have gone into why distillation may or may not be seen as "an attack". But then it would have been a more involved story, defeating the purpose of a news feed.

The Reuters piece was "good enough". Some other place like the NYTimes or WSJ can follow up with more detailed investigative coverage if it's a worthwhile story.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#740

Post by manojlds »

eunos wrote: post #587
protimewaster wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The AI companies seem to take the viewpoint that everything on the internet is free, except their stuff. It's okay to hammer some random website with AI crawlers, ignoring robots.txt, and causing bandwidth costs to skyrocket. But if you cost an AI provider money with your data acquisition practices, well, that's just clearly unacceptable.

Anthropic, Dario especially seems have eternal grudge against China as a concept, that remind me of Thiel.

All a facade no? It's just about regulatory capture.
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