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Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

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Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#731

Post by dataflow »

dgoldstein0 wrote: post #565
dataflow wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The central bank controls what payments are permitted by what laws exist, not some risk management system that has decided that your legal purchase is too risky or some foreign state has applied sanctions against you. That sounds worse to be honest. You're essentially asking for the government to be not only aware of but also able to control all digital payments. That upends how money has worked over (literally) mi…

Not intending to defend either system but private financial institutions basically end up deputized as enforcement arms of anti money laundering and sanctions in the US and probably other countries where the payments systems are privatized. That's a why every bank has a big compliance department - the laws say a lot about who and what they can serve and they have to be on top of it. Which yes means sometimes legit tr…

> Not intending to defend either system but private financial institutions basically end up deputized as enforcement arms of anti money laundering and sanctions in the US and probably other countries where the payments systems are privatized.

I feel like people get so distracted by the problems they see with the existing system that they completely miss just how much more dangerous things could get in a centralized government system. For example:

- The current system is distributed and does not let any central entity make the unilateral decision to block any given transaction. Even if you think of banks as deputies of the government, they still differ in how they evaluate and respond to risks, and you have some ability to go to alternative institutions when one of them is wrong. This isn't speculation, it's a fact that already plays out on a daily basis. You cannot do that with your government.

- Flagging a transaction is so incredibly different from blocking it. Flagging is surveillance, blocking is enforcement. It's one thing to get suspicious why I'm getting food at a particular vendor and demand that I explain myself afterward; it's a whole 'nother thing to remotely block me from getting it in the first place.

- Scalability matters. Letting the government be the middleman for all transactions lets the person at the controls block five transactions nearly just as easily as five million of them. Surveillance can get bad enough, yes, but do you really want to give them that much pre-judicial enforcement power too? Because they literally do not have that power currently.

- We had a live demo of what happens when government maintains a record of financial transactions (see the IRS and tax records). Play out what would've happened against a bank - would it have been worse?

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#732

Post by pndy »

gpvos wrote: post #448
sam_lowry_ wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, BLIK from Poland was there earlier and is in many ways better, Wero was unfairly lobbied for by the old European guard, so most of Eastern Europe walked away. They are now hesitantly joining Wero, supporting it only to downplay and to lobby ECB for an API platform and not for a product.

I've used BLIK once, for an online payment from the Netherlands to Poland, and for that it was terrible. I assume it's much better integrated into the Polish system.

Every bank supports it - there are quick money transfers by phone number (as long such number is registered as a payment recipient within Blik) and kind of cheque that can be redeemed using ATM. And of course you can do standard withdraw, deposit operations with Blik using ATM as well. POS terminals supports it along with standard card and contactless payment options.

Blik supports one-time, recurring and deferred payments (that last thing is just being implemented by few banks but probably will be available everywhere soon), and one-click ones that don't require PIN verification. I'm not 100% sure but the only thing that's not possible is charge-back - if you pay with Blik, you're left with a standard complaint for payment that caused problems.

Last year I was using Blik to pay for my taxi to some 80-year old private driver because I didn't had enough cash - he was totally fine with it and as I noticed his car had even a Blik sticker.

Not sure how other European systems work like but I assume these are pretty similar in terms of functionality. The 6 digit temporary codes generated by your bank app and verified by secondary PIN will stay here along contactless payments done by cards or phones, watches.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#733

Post by jdub »

dataflow wrote: post #509
sschueller wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PIX is also better because it gives control back to the central bank (as it was with cash) and not private industry although they are providing the service. The central bank controls what payments are permitted by what laws exist, not some risk management system that has decided that your legal purchase is too risky or some foreign state has applied sanctions against you.

> The central bank controls what payments are permitted by what laws exist, not some risk management system that has decided that your legal purchase is too risky or some foreign state has applied sanctions against you. That sounds worse to be honest. You're essentially asking for the government to be not only aware of but also able to control all digital payments. That upends how money has worked over (literally) mi…

> Giving someone in government the ability to block someone's payments and trusting they won't abuse it might be fine as long as good people remain in power, but do you really want to bet the entire nation's ability to live life on that?

Banking and finance companies honour foreign government sanctions. Ask Francesca Albanese.

Libertarian comparisons of government and non-government behaviour always devolves into angel counting.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#734

Post by lobocinza »

dataflow wrote: post #509
sschueller wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PIX is also better because it gives control back to the central bank (as it was with cash) and not private industry although they are providing the service. The central bank controls what payments are permitted by what laws exist, not some risk management system that has decided that your legal purchase is too risky or some foreign state has applied sanctions against you.

> The central bank controls what payments are permitted by what laws exist, not some risk management system that has decided that your legal purchase is too risky or some foreign state has applied sanctions against you. That sounds worse to be honest. You're essentially asking for the government to be not only aware of but also able to control all digital payments. That upends how money has worked over (literally) mi…

The state has the power to cancel a person. If MasterCard denies to service you well at least you can look for a competitor or sue. Anyway digital authoritarianism is inevitable. PIX and this Euro system are steps towards CDBCs.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#735

Post by lobocinza »

dataflow wrote: post #731
dgoldstein0 wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not intending to defend either system but private financial institutions basically end up deputized as enforcement arms of anti money laundering and sanctions in the US and probably other countries where the payments systems are privatized. That's a why every bank has a big compliance department - the laws say a lot about who and what they can serve and they have to be on top of it. Which yes means sometimes legit tr…

> Not intending to defend either system but private financial institutions basically end up deputized as enforcement arms of anti money laundering and sanctions in the US and probably other countries where the payments systems are privatized. I feel like people get so distracted by the problems they see with the existing system that they completely miss just how much more dangerous things could get in a centralized g…

You can move out of country but for that you need to buy tickets but your cards don't work anymore, your bank accounts are frozen, cash isn't acceptable anymore and digital currency isn't fungible.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#736

Post by lobocinza »

ricardobeat wrote: post #679
dataflow wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The central bank controls what payments are permitted by what laws exist, not some risk management system that has decided that your legal purchase is too risky or some foreign state has applied sanctions against you. That sounds worse to be honest. You're essentially asking for the government to be not only aware of but also able to control all digital payments. That upends how money has worked over (literally) mi…

Credit cards, iDeal, SWIFT, Paypal, Venmo, etc are all fully traceable. Anonimity at the protocol level is not a design goal for any of these. Being worse is debatable: the main difference is the government being able to execute blocking on their own, vs having to convince all banking institutions to do it for them - doesn't sound hard as the govt will always have all the leverage. Also important to note that BCB (th…

Indeed the issue was leverage. The problem is CDBC. The govs plan is to end money fungibility. Once they get that leverage, MasterCard or central bank is just a detail.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#737

Post by lobocinza »

brnt wrote: post #681
dismalaf wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a joke but Visa and Mastercard are American corporations so Americans can feel relatively secure using them. If you live in another developed country, relying on the whims of American entities feels less secure than something subject to the laws of your own country.

American consumers have no democratic control of that duopoly either.

To be fair both are publicly traded and owning shares would give you voting rights.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#738

Post by rozap »

handedness wrote: post #692
rozap wrote: post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America was literally founded on this premise, and it should come as no surprise that our government has (d)evolved into what the founders felt was inevitable. America is fairly exceptional in that it's not racist to say "Americans are ____" given it's a melting pot of so many different races and cultures. That's a beautiful thing, but something that the white supremecists in control of the US are working to erode. E…

> Edit: damn I think this account is actually a bot. It's only pro Israel talking points, islamaphobia, and appeals to the mod to get people banned. This kind of thing degrades discussion. Please don't do that here.

You're right, it does, and my edit was my emotion getting the better of me. But when you realize you're interacting with an account that only posts about the same few talking points and never contributed to tech discussion, I think it's a reasonable conclusion to come to. I was wound up enough to check his profile, which yea...don't do that, but he got me. Bot and troll accounts are good at that, whereas generally discussion on hn is alright, even if the viewpoints are disagreeable.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#739

Post by 8ytecoder »

Aachen wrote: post #566
chpatrick wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I get sent a fake (or no) product by someone halfway around the world there's absolutely no way I'm getting my money back in small claims court.

Then use a service that offers escrow. I don't need my groceries to use insurance for the eventuality that the store goes belly-up in the 2 days until I can check that the products arrived in good order Base payment products should just do payment at operating margins rivaling a non-profit. It's public infrastructure

What you’re describing here results in extreme consolidation. The one or two e-commerce giants that figure it out will rule. No startup can ever sell anything online easily. Why would a customer trust a new or upcoming brand or buy anything online?

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#740

Post by kalleboo »

baq wrote: post #657
Fnoord wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iDeal can also be used for recurring payment. I set one up yesterday. If you like Tikkie, you may like bunq as well. This is kind of a problem with Wero though [1]: > The Wero app can be installed on any mobile device or tablet running iOS 16 or later, or Android version 9 or later. We recommend updating your device to the latest version of its operating system for maximum performance, convenience and security. > It…

banks really like hardware attestation and putting that in laptops and PCs causes serious pushback from people like us here. not an option to not have hardware attestation on mobile - it's been there since day 1, there's nothing to protest against anymore

Although at this point, doesn't Windows 11 require TPM, and Apple has had the Secure Enclave since the T2 Macs...
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