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The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

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Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#731
post #726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only if the mothers in aggregate truly believe that their children will have good lives, then will they have them. Parents have never truly cared whether or not their children will have "good lives", certainly not in any - "i'll sit down and analyze carefully if my offspring will have a good time" type of way. Child mortality rate used to be something like 50% in past. People still have insane fertility rates in co…

"People still have insane fertility rates in complete - objectively shitholes - like Bangladesh, etc." Here is the fertility rate in Bangladesh: https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/bgd/ban...

I stand corrected, it doesn't have "insane fertility rate".

That's still a high fertility rate for a country with stats like this: https://www.globalhungerindex.org/bangladesh.html

> 25.1% of children under five are stunted, 10.7% of children under five are wasted

And the country had even higher fertility rates when it had higher frequency of famines, and much higher rates of hunger and malnourishment.

The point i was making however, is that parents don't truly - at a deeper level - consider the quality of life they are subjecting their child to.

Natural selection doesn't maximize for quality of life (it doesn't care for it), it selects for procreation and survival.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#732
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every morning I get to my son's school about 10 minutes before the doors open. We arrive by bike and we sit ALONE on the benches near the front door. Meanwhile, the curb is full of extra large SUVs idling with kids just waiting inside the cars. The long line of SUVs extends all through the neighborhood. My son and I are alone because people just won't leave their cars until the doors open. A vast majority of the kids…

A different experience here in London - when we are 10 minutes early there's a big load of kids waiting with their parents, most arrive on foot.

What are the kids waiting for? Why are their parents there?

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are some of the myths they bust in that article? For those of us who can't see past the paywall

TL;DR: the article argues we cannot fix the population crisis with small tax breaks or traditional values because the modern world has made the cost of raising a child being too high for most people to want to try. --- The article argues that the global drop in birth rates isn’t a moral failure or a biological accident, but a logical response to the pressures of modern life. 1. Myth: People are too selfish/liberal to…

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Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#734

I like to hang out on fertility twitter. It's a strange place. Since the fertility problem is worldwide, you get a lot of ideologies mixing about. There's hardcore CCP folks, free market Mormons, radical Imams, universalist preachers, the whole lot of them. They're all trying to share ideas and jumping on the latest research findings from reputable and crackpot sources. They're all looking for the recipe to get peopl…

The main issue is that you don't need children anymore. Previously, your children were: - your workforce - your retirement plan - your elderly care plan - your security - your private army Now, when all these things don't apply anymore, or you have better replacements, you simply don't need children. They are just an unnecessary cost. You can live a happier and better life without that with children. Maybe when child…

> Now, when all these things don't apply anymore, or you have better replacements, you simply don't need children.

Oh you still need them for all of those. It just so happens that developed capitalist countries figured out you can use immigrant's children for this, rather than paying to grow them in-house, since with outsourcing children you bypass a large chunk of the cost.

Developed countries already sold their own children's futures in exchange for short term equity gains, now it's being done to countries where outsourcing happens.

Capitalism is eating fertility.

> Maybe when children become scarce, and the whole social security civilization collapses, children will again start to be worth something. And then, there would be more of them. But not until then.

Aye, agreed. It will swing back one way or another.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#735

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You link to an October 2025 article documenting 9 "Kavanaugh stops" to somehow claim that they don't happen? You link to an article that is "We Found That More Than 170 U.S. Citizens Have Been Held by Immigration Agents. They’ve Been Kicked, Dragged and Detained for Days." and which has reporting inside that describes the 170 cases of ICE detaining citizens. Note that detainment is more severe and different from the…

If you read the footnotes in the article, it is apparent that somewhere between 0 and 9 of the incidents described are Kavanaugh stops. The article is trying to play up the situation in order to cater to their audience, but they have sufficient journalistic integrity to tell the truth amidst the spin.

Yes, there may be more of them, but in this particular article that was the most that they could find, and they were clearly trying to find them -- they even include 130 stops that they themselves say are of people who were obstructing or interfering with ICE operations. This is not good, but it's a pretty far cry from bystanders being harassed on the sidewalk for having an accent or the wrong skin color.

Link me a better source that describes or accounts the number of these stops and I'll update my comments and move my priors appropriately.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#736

This is happening everywhere , including nations with great social systems/healthcare/parental leave/etc. And it happens even when nations try throwing money at the problem. While economic concerns may be worsening the issue - I don't think they're the root cause as many would like to say. I think the root cause is that we have outsmarted our biology. Once you give people education on the risks of sex and pregnancy,…

"People in their 20's will see peak world population in their lifetime. It will be fascinating to see how society changes over the decades that follow that."

I am 45. I have fairly big* chance of making the global population curve actually drop!

*OK, not really, but you get the point I hope....

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#737

I like to hang out on fertility twitter. It's a strange place. Since the fertility problem is worldwide, you get a lot of ideologies mixing about. There's hardcore CCP folks, free market Mormons, radical Imams, universalist preachers, the whole lot of them. They're all trying to share ideas and jumping on the latest research findings from reputable and crackpot sources. They're all looking for the recipe to get peopl…

Everyone in this thread saying otherwise is wrong, the problem is low testosterone, simple as; there's obviously other factors causing actual health-related low fertility, but as for the lack of having children it's simply low testosterone.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#738
post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on your lower comment, Rhode Island. Median family income $87k Cost-of-living ~$36k excluding housing With your example of a $350K home, someone making the median (presumably not 20-30 year olds but more like 40-45 year olds...) they could save up the $70k down payment in under 2 years. P & I payment of ~$2k / month. Maybe $1k more for escrow of taxes and insurance. So $72k total cost of living on $87k, assumin…

> Cost-of-living ~$36k excluding housing When you say housing, are you excluding utilities or just not direct rent / mortgage / property taxes? Either way, that's a good example of how different things are without kids and maybe why folks are choosing not to have them. As someone without kids who lives in NY (not NYC), I couldn't even imagine spending 36k / year (minus rent). Even if I took a 3 week international vac…

From the link I posted, a "family of 4" in R.I. has a cost-of-living of $3090 / month (without rent.) It then line items "rent & utilities" as $2644 / month.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#739

I like to hang out on fertility twitter. It's a strange place. Since the fertility problem is worldwide, you get a lot of ideologies mixing about. There's hardcore CCP folks, free market Mormons, radical Imams, universalist preachers, the whole lot of them. They're all trying to share ideas and jumping on the latest research findings from reputable and crackpot sources. They're all looking for the recipe to get peopl…

As you say, a lot of the reasons people give are flippant and superficial. The most common claim I've seen is that everything is too expensive, but this is untrue. For some time, we have been richer than we've ever been in history, on the whole, and yet we witness decline. And all of the money-oriented incentives gov'ts have deployed have also petty much failed.

The problem is composed of multiple factors. However, I would say that there is a unifying element, a master key, that explains all of these elements, and that is consumerism. I mean "consumerism" as an ethos and as a matter of culture.

1. People are creatures of convention. Very few people operate or live life outside of the conventions of their times and of their culture. Culture creates the grain of life most people will follow, for better or for worse. In general, people are terrified of swimming upstream or going against the grain.

2. Subjectively speaking, culture determines conventions, sensibilities, patterns of life, purposes and goals pursued, and what is valued. Culture, whether explicitly or implicitly, imbues people with a sense of how life ought to be lived and where energies ought to be spent. It shapes attitudes toward the facts of life.

3. Inevitably, culture is institutionalized in law. As law is a teacher, culture is partly perpetuated through law.

4. Culture is also replicated and reinforced through media and education. It is usually insinuated.

5. Consumerism construes human nature and human fulfillment in terms of consumption. The obvious case is economic consumption. We believe buying things will make us whole. We believe money is the root of happiness. The life is the market and the market is life. Everything is for sale, for the right price.

6. This already creates an opposition. If consumption makes us whole, then children are antithetical to wholeness. After all, children are consumers! They are competitors. Given the choice between a new luxury car and another child, many couples would choose the car. People routinely make this calculation. They will limit their brood, because children eat into budgets and into time that could otherwise be spent on luxury items and vacations on tropical islands (mutatis mutandis).

7. If consumption makes us whole, then everything else that might be desired is recast as a matter of consumption as well. Even human relationships are reconsidered in consumerist terms. Sexual relationships become consumerist and transactional. Sex itself becomes commoditized, and becomes an instrument of the market. Beauty is desecrated and exploited to push products and services. A functional prostitution and an exploitative stance invade and pollute relations between the sexes, rendering them totally dysfunctional.

8. Contraception enters the picture. Contraception is the paradigmatic expression and cornerstone of all sexual consumerism. It is the incarnation of sterility and physical manifestation of a "NO" to life. It is a manifest contradiction of the essential and core function of sexual intercourse, which is procreative (the other end, the unitive, presupposes the procreative purpose, and so the denial of the procreative is a denial of the unitive). Its acceptance and normalization dethrones the procreative and elevates the pleasurable in its place. Thus, sex is no longer pleasurable. Sex is now for pleasure. The paradox, of course, is that doing this destroys the pleasure of sex, producing a pathological hunt for pleasure that is increasingly bizarre.

9, By denying the procreative, we undermine the significance of the deep complementarity of the sexes. This destroys sexual normativity and opens the door to a consuming and obsessive pursuit of an increasingly unhinged and dizzying array of erotic perversion. Children again become opposition. A child is a wet blanket thrown on the hot fire of deviant eroticism. This way enters abortion as a solution, and the pursuit of intrinsically sterile sexual gratification.

9. Consumerism propels careerism. The career is underpinned by the presupposition that you will need money to consume. A career is your path to making more money so that you can be more happy. Universities are reconfigured away from fuddy-duddy old school liberal arts education to job training centers. Woman are now taught that to be a fulfilled woman is to seek a career. Marriage and childbearing are postponed, not only to attend university, but to spend one's most fertile years shoring up one's careers after graduation. One must justify that expensive education (expensive in time and money). Careerism sacrifices the family for the mirage of consumerism.

10. Now, human life is also commoditized. When women do come around to wanting children, whether for good or bad reasons, they often discover that they are too old, having made a sacrificial offering of their fertility to their corporate god. But we believe we are entitled to children. We believe we are entitled to other human beings as instruments of our fulfillment. So we pursue fertility treatments like IVF. IVF is consumerism on steroids.

12. Consumerism reshapes social practices and life patterns. It created friction and impediments that make having children more difficult, because the assumptions that underpin it maintain that you won't have children, at least not until later. The implicit support, the social and economic architecture of the world and its operations and customs, become hostile to family life. Bad habits, like living beyond one's means, are fed. We demand a standard of living we cannot afford, and view children as hostile elements that rob us of our birthright.

13. A culture must justify itself. Thus, each failed generation rationalizes its bad decisions to soothe its own collective ego by re-presenting its failures as normative to the next.

The solution really is simple: women ought to marry in their mid-20s on average and start having children immediately. The obstacles are cultural and habitual. Our culture creates friction and our cultural programming causes us to deviate from the successful pattern. Instead of ordering the patterns of human life around human nature and human development, we strap human beings into a Procrustean culture, torturing and deforming them to suit weird and arbitrary standards. Instead of conforming our desires to reality, we deform reality in an attempt to conform it to our desires.

This is human arrogance and human folly.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The recent episode of The Daily gives a prime example of this, I was seeing people getting hired and getting paid a lot less than me. And when I inquired about it, my boss would say, well, they’re less expensive. I don’t have to pay workman’s comp on them. I don’t have to pay general liability insurance on them. If they get hurt, they’ll go to the emergency room. No sweat off my back. And I was getting paid less and…

I don't think he blames the immigrants specifically, so much as illegal immigration as an institution. The only "punishment" that most people want for illegal immigrants who have committed no crimes other than the immigration violation itself is for them to be deported, which really does not seem like a punishment at all -- it's just undoing the criminal act. Like if you stole some money from a bank and then had to g…

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