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End of Japanese community

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Re: End of Japanese community

#731

Post by anigbrowl »

ninetyninenine wrote: post #605
kstenerud wrote: post #369

I know that everyone has already given their opinions about what kinds of people are involved and their motivations, but this is really about two fallible humans, one listing grievances and another asking to open a communication channel. That's it. Anything else you read into this is going to be fraught with your own coloring based on a hundred words written in text (a notoriously difficult medium to establish emotio…

Why do humans pretend this is the most sensible way to go. You know on HN even with all these “polite” rules to make everything civil I still see shit that really just bends and goes around the rules. Example comments: “I’m baffled at how someone can think this way.” The tone is always performatively mild, but the intent is identical to “you’re an idiot.” Except they wrap it in this passive-aggressive intellectual co…

Great analysis. It's especially ironic to see it play out in this context given the well-known Japanese predilection for building consensus and buy-in; the flip side of this is that those outside the circle of decision-makers are especially sensitive to the subtexts you identify.

This style of communication certainly has its uses, and I too resort to it when I want to indicate firm disagreement without being aggressive, as do most people. I think the reasons it has generated so much pushback on this occasion are twofold: it's being used to dismiss the concerns of whole community by infantilizing a long-time leader of said community, and it's doing so in the context of translation itself. That is, volunteer effort and tools that are supposed to improve communication and mutual understanding in theory are in practice being replaced unilaterally with a tool that epitomizes a unilateral and dehumanized approach to information processing.

Re: End of Japanese community

#732

Post by andrecarini »

kstenerud wrote: post #395
whilenot-dev wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't about communication though, it's about community. Mozilla just introduced a bot to overtake community efforts. > another asking to open a communication channel. The other person is asking to open a private communication channel. OT, but where is this reductionism-to-rationalize-trend coming from lately?

Community is also about communication. In fact, that's a primary aspect of a community. Yeah, Mozilla introduced a bot that's stomping on things. Are they malicious? Twirling neatly waxed mustaches as they cackle gleefully as the little ants scurry about in a panic? Or is this a case of humans doing what humans do: Screwing things up. The first step is to open communications, and the most effective form of communicat…

As an unpaid volunteer to a multimillion dollar corporation that has just erased a huge collective volunteer effort, listing in writing the reasons I'm unhappy is already way too much effort.

Asking that same volunteer to hop on a video call is just insensitive. They're the one providing free work; if you care about solving the problem and not losing the volunteer force, you should go where they are (the forums) instead of asking them to come to you (video call). They probably don't want to take time out of their schedule to waste their time talking with a community rep. And they probably don't even want to do a voice/video call.

Re: End of Japanese community

#733

Post by Aerolfos »

Seattle3503 wrote: post #728
Aerolfos wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Mozilla leadership seems to have a unfortunate tendency to emulate the behaviors of the tech companies that their core Firefox project is often seen as an alternative too. But of course, they need "competitive" salaries so they can hire "great talent" from the tech sector so that the company doesn't fall behind or something.

How would you develop Firefox?

I'm sure people will come out of the woodwork to tell me just how wrong this is, but say various Linux projects or the kernel seem to have better (better, not perfect) governance structures.

Not being obsessed with rapacious growth, not chasing trends and features that look good on delivery metrics but instead building a stable product would go a long way.

And frankly, for descriptions on what the product should be, standards to implement (or not), and overall strategy for a project that tries to do its best for tech as a whole - Mozillas own writeups are spot-on! They just don't seem to act in accordance with the "vibe" and ideals that blog posts etc. talk about.

Re: End of Japanese community

#734

Post by thaumasiotes »

thyristan wrote: post #401
thaumasiotes wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The stereotypical overly aggressive car salesman would much rather speak to you in person than via email even though the same information can be conveyed. There might be an element of personality there. I was texting with a real estate agent (for apartment rental, not purchase) in China once, when he decided that as long as we were talking he might as well call me. He didn't bother mentioning this to me beforehand.…

I've been a typical IT person for a very long time. In the last few years, I got into contact with salespeople, by being basically a sales engineer. And I've learned that there is a reason to make a call besides the publicity aspect: A call (and I mean call with voice and possibly video) forces immediacy. It puts both parties on the spot. Or rather just the party being called, because hopefully the caller did prepare…

I think the complaint people are voicing in the HN thread is fairly straightforward, but it's being phrased in many different ways because the concept isn't viewed positively in American culture: Kiki, in her attempt to respond, has used an inappropriate level of linguistic formality.

More specifically, she's used a level of formality below what would be appropriate for most communication between strangers. Someone speaking in an official capacity (almost anywhere) who went much more informal than that would be at serious risk of getting fired. There's a similar effect to what was complained about in this meme tweet: https://xcancel.com/cherrikissu/status/972524442600558594

> Can websites please stop the trend of giving error messages that are like "OOPSIE WOOPSIE!! Uwu We made a fucky wucky!! A wittle fucko boingo! The code monkeys at our headquarters are working VEWY HAWD to fix this!"

Forced cheerfulness and fictional intimacy are a bad call as a response to "after having 20 years of contributions overridden without warning, we can no longer work with you". That's true regardless of whether the complaint is meant as a dramatic opener to a negotiation or as a severing of relations.

Re: End of Japanese community

#735

Post by N_Lens »

npinsker wrote: post #694
jameslk wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be viewed that way, but it’s also useful to empathize with someone and get more detail/nuance that can’t be conveyed simply over text. Especially when someone is not happy. I usually do the same thing when the medium is text and someone is not happy. Tone conveys a lot of useful information. Even better if you can see a person and their body language. I don’t think the cynical view of the staff person’s intent…

The request by itself is fine; it's not about that, but about the nuance within the word choice and what it conveys. It appears the OP is an incredibly valuable community member that has been deeply affronted and hurt by the recent changes. Any attitude other than "I'll move heaven and earth to make this right for you" will likely feel insufficient. Even failing that, I'd at least expect an attitude of "I really, REA…

The fact that your comment is needed to explain these basic nuances says something about the emotional skills of HN readership.

Re: End of Japanese community

#736

Post by Sabinus »

burnte wrote: post #653
btilly wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, long-term volunteers like this don't just up and quit without having already made multiple attempts at communicating first. The fact that those attempts are not detailed in a public "I quit" message, doesn't mean that those attempts didn't exist. In my further experience, people with titles like "Senior Community Manager" (the title of Kiki, the person trying to "open communication") do not generall…

> In my experience, long-term volunteers like this don't just up and quit without having already made multiple attempts at communicating first. Can confirm. You get kicked around long enough, you stop volunteering.

But one would assume you would mention the failure of the organisation to address your previously raised concerns in your resignation-and-criticise blog post?

Re: End of Japanese community

#737

Post by airhangerf15 »

hinkley wrote: post #273
thomassmith65 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd just begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure: https://ladybird.org/#gi

Firefox is itself someone deciding to make their own fork of mozilla. Maybe we need to do it again every ten years.

What? Firefox (or really Firebird before the rename) came internally from Mozilla way when it got its start (when Netscape was still around) in an attempt to make a scaled down, "just the browser" version of the entire Netscape Communicator/Mozilla suite.

Re: End of Japanese community

#738

Post by airhangerf15 »

skrebbel wrote: post #579
reddalo wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also love Immich, but it seems like there's some controversy about FUTO: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45666239

Appreciate the response. I read the Devault rant. It’s not clear to me that the guy behind FUTO is actively evil, seems more like he’s trying his best and still figuring that whole “being a semi public figure funding stuff” thing out. Drew’s position that interacting with people with bad opinions makes you evil by association doesn’t strike me as mainstream (or future-proof for that matter).

How is Drew not banned on here? You can't even talk about his obsession with .. "Japaneses child art" let's say .. without it getting flagged and removed. (This comment will get flagged). Meanwhile other people who lean slightly right are totally shadowbanned.

Devault is not a good actor. Everything he says comes out of jealousy and spite.

Re: End of Japanese community

#739

Post by airhangerf15 »

reddalo wrote: post #222
thomassmith65 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd just begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure: https://ladybird.org/#gi

I'm happy that somebody is trying to create a new browser -- even though some people say it's impossible nowadays. But FUTO sponsoring that project gives bad vibes.

No, it doesn't. People complaining about someone talking x or y funding is "bad vibes." Why does everything have to turn into ideological BS?

Look, Wikimedia is an evil, biased, insane organization that grifts for money and gives to absolutely insane causes, but if they gave me a few thousand for an open source project, would I turn them down? No. I'd never give them money, but it's not going to prevent me from using their services either (using LibRedirect + a Wikiless instance to avoid tracking and their ads of course).

Re: End of Japanese community

#740

Post by ssolarsystem1 »

sameerds wrote: post #654

> Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. That has the same vibes as a customer support helpline that has no intention to actually help.

it seems like kiki(mozilla staff) want to talk on the phone because texting is not enough in this serious situation. kiki has been working in the community forum, so i don't think it's just CS action.
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