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The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

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Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#731
post #123

Personal take: LLMs are probably part of the answer (to AGI?) but are hugely handicapped by their current architecture: the only time that long-term memories are formed is during training, and everything after that (once they're being interacted with) sits only in their context window, which is the equivalent of fungible, fallible, lossy short-term memory. [0] I suspect that many things they currently struggle with c…

I've spent a few weeks building and using a terminal LLM client based on that RLM paper that was floating around a little while ago. It's single-conversation, with a tiny, sliding context window, and then a tool that basically fuzzy searches across our full interaction history. It's memory is 'better' than mine - but anything that is essentially RAG inherently will be. My learning so far, to your point on memory bein…

I think a hidden problem even if we solve memory is the curation of what gets into memory and how it is weighted. Even humans struggle with this, as it's easy to store things and forget the credibility (or misjudge the credibility) of the source.

I can envision LLMs getting worse upon being given a memory, until they can figure out how to properly curate it.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#732
post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The discussion about “AGI” is somewhat pointless, because the term is nebulous enough that it will probably end up being defined as whatever comes out of the ongoing huge investment in AI. Nevertheless, we don’t have a good conceptual framework for thinking about these things, perhaps because we keep trying to apply human concepts to them. The way I see it, a LLM crystallises a large (but incomplete and disembodied)…

Not quite pointless - something we have established with the advent of LLMs is that many humans have not attained general intelligence. So we've clarified something that a few people must have been getting wrong, I used to think that the bar was set so that almost all humans met it.

What do you mean? Almost every human can go to school and become a stable professional at some job, that is the bar to me, todays LLM cannot do that.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be that this tech produces clear, rational, chain of logic writeups , but it's not clear that just because we also do that after thinking that it is only thinking that produces writeups. It's possible there is much thinking that does not happen with written word. It's also possible we are only thinking the way LLMs do (by chaining together rationalizations from probable words), and we just aren't aware of it u…

The contrast between your first and last paragraph is... unexpected > It may be that this tech produces clear, rational, chain of logic writeups, but it's not clear that just because we also do that after thinking that it is only thinking that produces writeups. I appreciate the way you describe this idea, I find it likely I'll start describing it the same way. But then you go on to write: > Regardless, I submit that…

> It's not clear that equating organic, and synthetic thought will have any meaningful outcome at all,

I agree! I'm saying "If we equate them, we shortcut all the good stuff, e.g., understanding", because "it may be that this tech produces what we can, but that doesn't mean we are the same", which is good because it keeps us learning vs reducing all of "thinking" to just "Whatever latest chatgpt does". We have to continue to believe there is more to thinking, if only because it pushes us to make it better and to keep "us" as the benchmark.

Perhaps I chose the wrong words, but in essence what I'm saying is that giving up agency to a machine that was built to mimic our agency (by definition as a ML system) should be avoided at all costs.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get why you would say that. it's just auto-completing. It cannot reason. It won't solve an original problem for which it has no prior context to "complete" an approximated solution with. you can give it more context and more data,but you're just helping it complete better. it does not derive an original state machine or algorithm to solve problems for which there are no obvious solutions. it instead approxima…

> It won't solve an original problem for which it has no prior context to "complete" an approximated solution with. Neither can humans. We also just brute force "autocompletion" with our learned knowledge and combine it to new parts, which we then add to our learned knowledge to deepen the process. We are just much, much better at this than AI, after some decades of training. And I'm not saying that AI is fully there…

> Neither can humans. We also just brute force "autocompletion"

I have to disagree here. When you are tasked with dividing 2 big numbers you most certainly don't "autocomplete" (with the sense of finding the most probable next tokens, which is what an LLM does), rather you go through set of steps you have learned. Same as with the strawberry example, you're not throwing guesses until something statistically likely to be correct sticks.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#735

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be that this tech produces clear, rational, chain of logic writeups , but it's not clear that just because we also do that after thinking that it is only thinking that produces writeups. It's possible there is much thinking that does not happen with written word. It's also possible we are only thinking the way LLMs do (by chaining together rationalizations from probable words), and we just aren't aware of it u…

The contrast between your first and last paragraph is... unexpected > It may be that this tech produces clear, rational, chain of logic writeups, but it's not clear that just because we also do that after thinking that it is only thinking that produces writeups. I appreciate the way you describe this idea, I find it likely I'll start describing it the same way. But then you go on to write: > Regardless, I submit that…

[deleted]

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get why you would say that. it's just auto-completing. It cannot reason. It won't solve an original problem for which it has no prior context to "complete" an approximated solution with. you can give it more context and more data,but you're just helping it complete better. it does not derive an original state machine or algorithm to solve problems for which there are no obvious solutions. it instead approxima…

Sure. But neither do you. So are you really thinking or are you just autocompleting? When was the last time you sat down and solved an original problem for which you had no prior context to "complete" an approximated solution with? When has that ever happened in human history? All the great invention-moment stories that come to mind seem to have exactly that going on in the background: Prior context being auto-comple…

I think (hah) you're understimating what goes on when living things (even small animals) think. We use auto-compleition for some tasks, but it is a component of what we do.

Let's say your visual system auto-completes some pattern and detects a snake while you're walking, that part is auto-completion. You will probably react by freezing or panicing, that part is not auto-compleition, it is a deterministic algorithm. But then you process the detected object, auto-compleiting again to identify it as just a long cucumber. But again, the classification part is auto-completion. What will you do next? "Hmm, free cucumber, i can cook with it for a meal" and you pick it up. auto-completion is all over that simple decision, but you're using results of auto-completion to derive association (food), check your hunger level (not auto-completion), determine that the food is desirable and safe to eat (some auto-compleition), evalute what other options you have for food (evaluate auto-complete outputs), and then instruct your nervous system to pick it up.

We use auto-compleition all the time as an input, we don't reason using auto-compleition in other words. You can argue that if all your input is from auto-completion (it isn't) then it makes no difference. But we have deterministic reasoning logical systems that evaluate auto-completion outputs. if your cucumber detection identified it as rotten cucumber, then decision that it is not safe to eat is not done by auto-completion but a reasoning logic that is using auto-completion output. You can approximate the level of rot but once you recognize it as rotten, you make decision based on that information. You're not approximating a decision, you're evaluating a simple logic of: if(safe()){eat();}.

Now amp that up to solving very complex problems. what experiments will you run, what theories will you develop, what R&D is required for a solution,etc.. these too are not auto-completions. an LLM would auto complete these and might arrive at the same conclusion most of the time. but our brains are following algorithms we developed and learned over time where an LLM is just expanding on auto-completion but with a lot more data. In contrast, our brains are not trained on all the knowledge available on the public internet, we retain a tiny miniscule of that. we can arrive at similar conclusions as the LLM because we are reasoning and following algorithms matured and perfected over time.

The big take away should be that, as powerful as LLMs are now, if they could reason like we do, they'd dominate us and become unstoppable. Because their auto-completion is many magnitudes better than ours, if they can write new and original code based on an understanding of problem solving algorithms, that would be gen ai.

We can not just add 1 + 1 but prove that the addition operation is correct mathematically. and understand that when you add to a set one more object, the addition operation always increments. We don't approximate that, we always, every single time , increment because we are following an algorithm instead of choosing the most likely correct answer.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#737

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not actually true - try photocopying a banknote with the security pattern on it.

That has a logic condition, no?

Not sure what you mean - there's a pattern of dots (the EURion constellation) on the banknotes of a number of countries that photocopiers recognize and will refuse to copy.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#738

Having seen LLMs so many times produce coherent, sensible and valid chains of reasoning to diagnose issues and bugs in software I work on, I am at this point in absolutely no doubt that they are thinking. Consciousness or self awareness is of course a different question, and ones whose answer seems less clear right now. Knee jerk dismissing the evidence in front of your eyes because you find it unbelievable that we c…

I don’t see how being critical of this is a knee jerk response. Thinking , like intelligence and many other words designating complex things, isn’t a simple topic. The word and concept developed in a world where it referred to human beings, and in a lesser sense, to animals. To simply disregard that entire conceptual history and say, “well it’s doing a thing that looks like thinking, ergo it’s thinking” is the lazy m…

I agree with you on the need for definitions.

We spent decades slowly working towards this most recent sprint towards AI without ever landing on definitions of intelligence, consciousness, or sentience. More importantly, we never agreed on a way to recognize those concepts.

I also see those definitions as impossible to nail down though. At best we can approach it like disease - list a number of measurable traits or symptoms we notice, draw a circle around them, and give that circle a name. Then we can presume to know what may cause that specific list of traits or symptoms, but we really won't ever know as the systems are too complex and can never be isolated in a way that we can test parts without having to test the whole.

At the end of the day all we'll ever be able to say is "well it’s doing a thing that looks like thinking, ergo it’s thinking”. That isn't lazy, its acknowledging the limitations of trying to define or measure something that really is a fundamental unknown to us.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#739

Having seen LLMs so many times produce coherent, sensible and valid chains of reasoning to diagnose issues and bugs in software I work on, I am at this point in absolutely no doubt that they are thinking. Consciousness or self awareness is of course a different question, and ones whose answer seems less clear right now. Knee jerk dismissing the evidence in front of your eyes because you find it unbelievable that we c…

It's reinforcement learning applied to text, at a huge scale. So I'd still say that they are not thinking, but they are still useful. The question of the century IMO is if RL can magically solve all our issues when scaled enough.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#740

The real question is not whether machines think but whether men do.

>"Think of how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that."

—George Carlin (RIP)

I have been discussing both fiction and non-fiction with Perplexity (since early 2023) and Ollama (since early 2025), and what I'm beginning to realize is that most humans really aren't thinking, machines.

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