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Why are there so many rationalist cults?

asteriskmag.com

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Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#731

Post by BlueTemplar »

lyu07282 wrote: post #586
skrebbel wrote: post #246

This article is beautifully written, and it's full of proper original research. I'm sad that most comments so far are knee-jerk "lol rationalists" type responses. I haven't seen any comment yet that isn't already addressed in much more colour and nuance in the article itself.

> I haven't seen any comment yet that isn't already addressed in much more colour and nuance in the article itself. I once called rationalists infantile, impotent liberal escapism, perhaps that's the novel take you are looking for. Essentially my view is that the fundamental problem with rationalists and the effective altruist movement is that they are talking about profound social and political issues, with any and…

I just so happened to read in the last few days the (somewhat disjointed and rambling) Technically Radical: On the Unrecognized [Leftist] Potential of Tech Workers and Hackers

https://wedontagree.net/technically-radical-on-the-unrecogni...

as well as the better but much older "The professional-managerial class" Ehrenreich (1976) :

https://libcom.org/article/professional-managerial-class-bar...

"Rationalists" do seem to be in some ways the poster children of consumerist atomization, but do note that they also resisted it socially by forming those 'cults' of theirs.

(If counter-cultures are 'dead', why don't they count as one ?? Alternatively, might this be a form of communitarianism, but with less traditionalism, more atheism, and perhaps a Jewish slant ?)

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#732

Post by bondarchuk »

dang wrote: post #612
skrebbel wrote: post #246

This article is beautifully written, and it's full of proper original research. I'm sad that most comments so far are knee-jerk "lol rationalists" type responses. I haven't seen any comment yet that isn't already addressed in much more colour and nuance in the article itself.

The contrarian dynamic strikes again! https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... (I'm referring to how this comment, objecting to the other comments as unduly negative, has been upvoted to the top of the thread.) (p.s. this is not a criticism!)

I think that since it's not possible to reply to multiple comments at the same time, people will naturally open a new top-level comment the moment there's a clearly identifiable groupthink emerging. Quoting one of your earlier comments about this:

>This happens so frequently that I think it must be a product of something hard-wired in the medium *[I mean the medium of the internet forum]

I would say it's only hard-wired in the medium of tree-style comment sections. If HN worked more like linear forums with multi-quote/replies, it might be possible to have multiple back-and-forths of subgroup consensus like this.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#733

Post by azangru »

pavlov wrote: post #398

A very interesting read. My idea of these self-proclaimed rationalists was fifteen years out of date. I thought they’re people who write wordy fan fiction, but turns out they’ve reached the point of having subgroups that kill people and exorcise demons. This must be how people who had read one Hubbard pulp novel in the 1950s felt decades later when they find out he’s running a full-blown religion now. The article see…

> Rationalists came to correct views about the COVID-19 pandemic while many others were saying masks didn’t work

I wonder what views about covid-19 are correct. On masks, I remember the mainstream messaging went through the stages that were masks don't work, some masks work, all masks work, double masking works, to finally masks don't work (or some masks work; I can't remember where we ended up).

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#734

Post by m101 »

Rationality is a broken tool for understanding the world. The complexity of the world is such that there are a plethora of reasons for anything which means our ability to be sure of any relationship is limited, and hence rationality leads to an unfounded confidence in our beliefs, which is more harmful than helpful.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#735

Post by n4r9 »

qcnguy wrote: post #726
skybrian wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was genuinely difficult to persuade people to wear masks before everyone started doing it and it became normal.

Nobody was persuaded, they were forced by law exactly because it was obvious to everyone with their brain switched on that masks didn't work. Remember how when the rules demanding masks on planes were rescinded there were videos of whole planes ripping off their masks and celebrating mid-flight? Literally the second the law changed, people stopped wearing masks. That's because masks were a mass hysteria. They did not…

As a counterpoint, myself and most people I know continued mask-wearing for many months after it stopped being a legal requirement in the UK.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#736

Post by poszlem »

aydyn wrote: post #715
stickfigure wrote: post #674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're falling into some sort of fallacy; maybe a better rationalist than I could name it. The "they" you are describing is a large body of disparate people spread around the world. We're reading an article that focuses on a few dysfunctional subgroups. They are interesting because they are so dysfunctional and rare. Or put it this way: Name one -ism that _doesn't_ have sub/splinter groups that kill people. Even Paci…

> The "they" you are describing is a large body of disparate people spread around the world. [Citation needed] I sincerely doubt anything but a tiny insignificant minority consider themselves part of the "rationalist community".

I realized a few years ago that there's an important difference between someone who believes women should have equal rights and a feminist. Similarly, there's a difference between someone who believes men should have equal rights and a men's rights advocate. I often sympathize with the first group. I often disagree with the latter. This same distinction applies to rationality: there's a huge difference between someone who strives to be rational and someone who belongs to a "rationalist community".

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#737

Post by aa-jv »

ImaCake wrote: post #490
throwanem wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article attempts to establish disjoint categories "good rationalist" and "cultist." Its authorship, and its appearance in the cope publication of the "please take us seriously" rationalist faction, speak volumes of how well it is likely to succeed in that project.

Not sure why you got down voted for this. The opening paragraph of the article reads as suspicious to the observant outsider: >The rationalist community was drawn together by AI researcher Eliezer Yudkowsky’s blog post series The Sequences, a set of essays about how to think more rationally. Anyone who had just read a lot about Scientology would read that and have alarm bells ringing.

Out of curiosity, why would the bells be ringing in this case? Is it just the fact that a single person is exerting influence over their followers by way of essays?

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#738

Post by BlueTemplar »

wussboy wrote: post #572
trawy081225 wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel like the internet has led to an explosion of these such groups because it abstracts the "ideas" away from the "people". I suspect if most people were in a room or spent an extended amount of time around any of these self-professed, hyper-online rationalists, they would immediately disregard any theories they were able to cook up, no matter how clever or persuasively-argued they might be in their written down…

Hard disagree. People use rationality to support the beliefs they already have, not to change those beliefs. The internet allows everyone to find something that supports anything. I do it. You do it. I think a fascinating litmus test is asking yourself this question: “When did I last change my mind about something significant?” For most people the answer is “never”. If we lived in the world you described, most people…

Why wouldn't this phenomenon start with writing itself (supercharged with the printing press), heck, even with oral myths ?

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#739

Post by davidgerard »

skybrian wrote: post #541
pavlov wrote: post #398

A very interesting read. My idea of these self-proclaimed rationalists was fifteen years out of date. I thought they’re people who write wordy fan fiction, but turns out they’ve reached the point of having subgroups that kill people and exorcise demons. This must be how people who had read one Hubbard pulp novel in the 1950s felt decades later when they find out he’s running a full-blown religion now. The article see…

The WHO didn't declare a global pandemic until March 11, 2020 [1]. That's a little slow and some rationalists were earlier than that. (Other people too.) After reading a warning from a rationalist blog, I posted a lot about COVID news to another forum and others there gave me credit for giving the heads-up that it was a Big Deal and not just another thing in the news. (Not sure it made all that much difference, thoug…

I worked at the British Medical Journal at the time. We got wind of COVID being a big thing in January. I spent January to March to get our new VPN into a fit state that the whole company could do their whole jobs from home. 23 March was lockdown and we were ready and had a very busy year.

That COVID was going to be big was obvious to a lot of people and groups who were paying attention. We were a health-related org, but we were extremely far from unique in this.

The rationalist claim that they were uniquely on the ball and everyone else dropped it is just a marketing lie.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#740

Post by empiricus »

godelski wrote: post #504
empiricus wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

soo many things make no sense in this comment that I feel like 20% chance this a mid quality gpt. and so much interpolation effort, but starting from hearsay instead of primary sources. then the threads stop just before seeing the contradiction with the other threads. I imagine this is how we all reason most of the time, just based on vibes :(

Sure, I wrote a lot and it's a bit scattered. You're welcome to point to something specific but so far you haven't. Ironically, you're committing the error you're accusing me of. I'm also not exactly sure what you mean because the only claim I've made is that they've made assumptions where there are other possible, and likely, alternatives. It's much easier to prove something wrong than prove it right (or in our case…

I apologize for the tone of my comment, but this is how I read your arguments (I was a little drunk at the time):

1. future AI cannot be infinitely intelligent, therefore AI is safe

But even with our level of intelligence, if we get serious we can eliminate all humans.

2. some smart ppl I know are peaceful

Do you think Putin is dumb?

3. smart ppl have different preferences than other ppl therefore AI is safe

Ironically this is the main doom argument from EY: it is difficult to make an AI that has the same values as us.

4. AI is competent enough to destroy everyone but is not able to tell fact from fiction

So are you willing to bet your life and the life of your loved ones on the certainty of these arguments?

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