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IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

haaretz.com

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#731

Post by FridayoLeary »

Aeolun wrote: post #721
FridayoLeary wrote: post #690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not surprising. They remember the scenes of ecstatic celebration on the streets of Gaza and the West Bank on october 7. And the fact is that the people of Gaza could end the conflict whenever they want. All they need to do is surrender and hand over the hostages. You might think i'm oversimplifying but actually that's really it.

> All they need to do is surrender and hand over the hostages. You might think i'm oversimplifying but actually that's really it. “The people of Gaza” have about as much chance of doing this as the ICC has of arresting and putting Netanyahu on trial.

Maybe maybe not but i see no major movement in Gaza towards surrendering. Of course seeing how the UN and most media outlets are working so well to supress any anti hamas narratives in Gaza (it's either that, or everyone in Gaza supports hamas, an absurd suggestion but one which would ironically fully vindicate Israel. The dishonesty of the UN upsets me) , even if there was we would be unlikely to hear about it.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#732

Post by decimalenough »

leptons wrote: post #698
mrcwinn wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love the Jewish community, so I don’t say this lightly, but I view Netanyahu actions as somewhat resembling Nazi Germany in one respect (though certainly not others). He may not believe Israeli Jews have a birthright to the whole world (rather they are trying to strengthen one nation’s borders), but there is no doubt in my mind they are indiscriminately cleansing a people out of existence. That is their aim, beyond…

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I'm not fan of the Trump administration, but nevertheless, no, it really isn't.

Arab citizens of Israel are systematically and legally discriminated against to an extent with no parallel in the US, and Arabs in the occupied territories (West Bank, East Jerusalem, Gaza) have effectively no rights at all.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#733

Post by YZF »

tootie wrote: post #716
YZF wrote: post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really surprised to hear another Jewish person speak about this in language that evokes the Nuremberg trials. The article generally describes the IDF being asked to do crowd control with lethal weapons. For the most part it also described casualties (number unclear/unknown) as unintentional consequences. I agree this does not look good but it's also not a matter of fact either. We don't know the facts, we don't k…

You're misreading. The civilian casualties are very much intentional. They are being ordered to fire on unarmed people seeking food. There are verified reports of IDF targeting journalists and EMTs. I am also Jewish American and I am 100% convinced that Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians. I find it utterly reprehensible that this opinion can ever be considered antisemitic since the actions of the Isra…

What is you definition of "genocide against the Palestinians"?

Are you including Palestinians that are Israeli citizens? The West Bank? Those living outside the region?

Word choice matters here.

Is Israel executing a plan to kill all Gazans?

I am 100% convinced Israel is not actually committing a genocide against Palestinians. That claim has no factual support. Do I agree with everything Israel is doing? No. Are there war crimes being committed by the IDF? Possibly yes, not necessarily different than any other modern war waged ever.

What would you suggest, based on Jewish ideology, should have been the proper response to Oct 7th? Would you go to war? Would you wage it differently? How would you deal with the realities on the ground?

Firing on people seeking food is not right.

The use of the word genocide, coined to describe the systemic murder of 6 million Jews for no reason, in this context, is very clearly meant as a form of diminishing/denying the Holocaust. There is just no other way to look at it. If Hamas was to surrender and return the hostages would Israel be sending all Palestinians to gas chambers?

"The word "genocide" was coined in 1944 by Polish lawyer Raphael Lemkin. He combined the Greek word "genos" (meaning race or tribe) with the Latin word "cide" (meaning killing) to create the term. Lemkin used the word to describe the systematic destruction of groups of people, specifically referencing the Nazi's actions during the Holocaust"

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#735

Post by YZF »

acdha wrote: post #709
YZF wrote: post #688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another Jewish Israeli I agree this is concerning. I do want you to consider the context here on Hacker News though. You and me have context, we understand the history, we understand at least something about wars and how they are fought. Most people here do not. The problem isn't whether firing on civilians with no reason when they come to get food is wrong or right. We all know it's wrong. The soldiers in Gaza kn…

> Where do we place Israel on that scale? Is there more attention on Israel vs. other similar world events? I’d flip that around: why shouldn’t we expect Israel to be better than a terrorist group like Hamas or the deeply evil Iranian government? When some Americans complained that they were being held to a higher standard than Al-Qaeda or ISIL, they were rightly criticized for betraying our national aspiration to le…

My scale isn't ISIL or Al-Qaeda. My scale is the US, the UK, Australia, France etc. The scale of the western world.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#736

Post by stats111 »

Gaza is the the grave yard of not only Palestinians, but the lie of a rules-based international order. Israel has been allowed to get away with - the backing on it's western allies - flagrant legal violations of international law, alongside accusations of Genocide by the ICJ.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#737

Post by acdha »

YZF wrote: post #735
acdha wrote: post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where do we place Israel on that scale? Is there more attention on Israel vs. other similar world events? I’d flip that around: why shouldn’t we expect Israel to be better than a terrorist group like Hamas or the deeply evil Iranian government? When some Americans complained that they were being held to a higher standard than Al-Qaeda or ISIL, they were rightly criticized for betraying our national aspiration to le…

My scale isn't ISIL or Al-Qaeda. My scale is the US, the UK, Australia, France etc. The scale of the western world.

Exactly. It’s fair to criticize Israel for civilian casualties just like all of those countries have been criticized for failing to live up to their stated standards. Countries like Russia or Iran are recognized as being worse but don’t get criticized for being hypocritical because nobody expected them to be good.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#738

Post by notjulianjaynes »

neepi wrote: post #659
edanm wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll provide context too - I'm a Jewish Israeli. I'd probably be considered left (or even far-left) by Israeli standards, but I'm in the "pro-Israeli" camp as conventionally understood online. This Haaretz article is very troubling. To the extent it's accurate, there's not much question that it reflects war crimes. A few thoughts: 1. The article itself says there is an ongoing investigation into some of these accusat…

I don't like getting involved in political threads but on this I have to. All information presented is mostly unverified testimony printed verbatim by the press from untrustworthy sources on both sides. It's difficult to tell what is fact and what is not. A lot of early reports in this war turned out to be false information and the rush to immediate news notification rather than quality journalism means that the head…

>(I wrote an extensive suite of software to track this)

Interesting. . . do you have a page for the project or anything?

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#739

Post by glandium »

Aeolun wrote: post #708
YZF wrote: post #688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another Jewish Israeli I agree this is concerning. I do want you to consider the context here on Hacker News though. You and me have context, we understand the history, we understand at least something about wars and how they are fought. Most people here do not. The problem isn't whether firing on civilians with no reason when they come to get food is wrong or right. We all know it's wrong. The soldiers in Gaza kn…

> The entire strategy of Israel's opponents in the middle east is to engage in war crimes. I think war crimes are a lot more acceptable/understandable if they’re the only way you even potentially have a chance to get back at your agressors. Nobody blames the resistance during the Nazi occupation for what they did. Israel is very much not in a position they need to perpetrate war crimes to win the war. They have alrea…

> Nobody blames the resistance during the Nazi occupation for what they did.

Are you really sure about that? Maybe now, but while it was happening, I'm not so sure everyone was on board. Quite the opposite.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#740

Post by SauciestGNU »

YZF wrote: post #720
Aeolun wrote: post #702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> War crimes in this war should be dealt with. Nuremberg trials is really not the right analogy. War crimes for firing into a crowd of civilians, for both the one that ordered it, and those that executed it, should definitely be at the same levels as the nuremberg trials. The fact that it will never happen doesn’t detract from that. Happily, the ICC seems to already know so, which is why there’s warrants out for all…

The ICC is a political circus and Israel is not a signatory. It has no jurisdiction. Even if Israel was a signatory the ICC should only intervene after Israel has done its own investigation and if it failed to hold the relevant standards. If there were war crimes committed then people need to be held accountable. The scale of the alleged war crimes is totally different than the crimes persecuted in Nuremberg.

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