Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

cnn.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

731–740 of 1001 posts

Re: Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

#731

Post by spacemadness »

msgodel wrote: post #88
unethical_ban wrote: post #65

Whether or not someone supports the current topic of the mostly peaceful and somewhat rebellious and violent protests, this much is clear. You either support somewhat violent protests, regardless of topic, expecting that law enforcement and civilians will handle it amongst themselves, or you are authoritarian and demand that the federal government intervene with the US Armed Forces the moment someone throws a rock at…

>lacks values I really hated when Fox news would say things like this and I hate it when individuals do. It makes it impossible for us to communicate. Just because the other side doesn't share your values doesn't mean they have none. You might say their values are evil. That's a different discussion, but they're rarely just reacting blindly.

You’re absolutely nitpicking the wrong thing out of context by quoting two words. So many bad faith arguments on here that are so transparent.

Re: Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

#732

Post by freejazz »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #441
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want something like this to work, federal agents need to do it Doing the arrests? Sure. Intimidating protesters for partisan messaging while desecrating the honour of our armed forces? No.

They are doing arrests and others are trying to block them from doing arrests. That is why the National Guard had to step it, because local law enforcement did nothing to protect ICE from the mobs that try to set free illegals.

"illegals"

Doing a lot of work for you there.

Re: Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

#733

Post by motorest »

timewizard wrote: post #330
motorest wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If illegal immigration is such a problem, why not fine businesses 5x salary for using the labor, for as long as it was used? The Nazis leveraged hatred towards minorities as a wedge to force their totalitarian control over Germany's state and society. They built up a ficticious enemy within, they inflamed society against that enemy, and proceeded to promise they would eliminate that enemy if the were granted total…

> they inflamed society against that enemy They blamed them for pre-existing social problems. I feel the important context was that the government had to be significantly dysfunctional for the Nazi party to even exist.

> They blamed them for pre-existing social problems.

Is immigration a new hot topic in the US?

I mean, a few years ago the US government started wasting money building a wall on the US-Mexico border whose only purpose was propaganda and dog whistling.

And is it really necessary to point out the obvious parallels between the Nazi's "vital state" propaganda and Trump's "Canada as 51st state" and "Greenland is ours" rhetoric?

If they talk like Nazis and they goose-step like Nazis, what are they? I would ask if you'd start being concerned when they started rounding up random people off the streets, but apparently that's still not enough.

Re: Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

#734

Post by thrance »

vixen99 wrote: post #511
techdmn wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just watched a vid of LAPD trampling a person with a horse, then shooting them with what looked like a baton round at a range of 5-10 feet. That is a life altering injury, administered with direct intent, while the protestor was trying to flee. Holding my breath for zero consequences for unnecessary force. Not to mention qualified immunity. LAPD doing LAPD things. How can one argue that the police serve the people? T…

How can the incident (with video evidence) you describe not potentially result in criminal charges? Why hold your breath? Surely there are countless people to act on that.

Presidential pardon? All jan 6ers were pardoned, despite extensive video evidence of their crimes. If you're loyal to the power in place, you can do whatever you want. That's fascism 101.

Re: Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

#735

Post by anonymid »

jl6 wrote: post #514

It's clear that many commenters here are operating from completely different factual bases, in terms of who did what, and in what order. Fog of war seems to be in effect.

I agree - there seems to be talking past each other about some very fundamental things:

How extensive is the violence of the protests? I saw some images shared of cars that were burned, maybe some buildings damaged. But also lots of images from other protests from previous years. Are the images of the same 3 cars and storefronts or many? Trump says the riots are out of control, Newsom says the protests are largely peaceful.

A basic claude search suggests the overall level of violence is moderate, and smaller than many recent protests [link](https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/ef220c3d-c6d9-4b4b-bb3f-2...)

How much of a strain do undocumented immigrants place on the US? You can answer this question from a financial and criminal point of view. From the point of view of crime, Trump and ICE are parading every violent undocumented immigrant they can, but that is not statistics. Do undocumented immigrants account for a significant portion of violent crime in the country?

Studies overwhelmingly show that undocumented immigrants are significantly less violent than the general population [link](https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/a92623b8-5c02-4c3a-84ae-f...)

From a financial point of view, what resources are undocumented immigrants straining, and is it to a significant degree?

The economic picture is much more nuanced. On the cost side, a criticized study (FAIR) reported the cost at about $182bn annually (this is likely an over-estimate). For comparison, undocumented immigrants pay about $100bn in taxes, boost the GDP, and create jobs. Mass deportation is estimated to cost $315Bn.

Studies show that the impact on wages is small.

The biggest cost factor ($78bn but estimates vary) seems to be K-12 education, and that is mostly born by states. [link](https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/29f10fcf-c8a7-4655-979f-b...).

Re: Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

#736

Post by runarberg »

tbrownaw wrote: post #199
runarberg wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of democracy. In a democracy you cannot vote your self a dictator. A democracy has democratic institutions such as courts and different branches of government, or systems in place which prevent any one individual from misusing their power, or grabbing more power then they have been handed from the electorate. In a democracy people can vote for the Devil him self, and the Devil h…

Sensible modern democracies will have those features, but they're no more part of the definition than having seatbelts and airbags is part of the definition of what a car is (I guess the model t is the equivalent of ancient Athens here?).

I‘m not concerned with the definition of democracy, if it can even be defined. I‘m simply concerned with the modern concept of democracy, which includes stuff like civil liberties, minority rights, and—relevant here—protection of these rights from tyranny.

I don’t think our analogy is valid. A car is just a car, and the concept of a car has not changed since its invention. The modern democracy has been constantly evolving from its inception (I’m sure democratic societies existed even before ancient Athens), but nobody would consider a democracy from the 1800s a democracy if it existed today. Heck even USA would not pass until the civil rights era of the 1960s.

Re: Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

#737

Post by runarberg »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #194
runarberg wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of democracy. In a democracy you cannot vote your self a dictator. A democracy has democratic institutions such as courts and different branches of government, or systems in place which prevent any one individual from misusing their power, or grabbing more power then they have been handed from the electorate. In a democracy people can vote for the Devil him self, and the Devil h…

> Elections have consequences, but if those consequences are the loss of rights, then you never lived in a democracy to begin with. So I guess these folks who live in a "real democracy" according to you just have the good government fairy swoop in when the people vote in a dictator. At the end of the day, a democracy is just people, all the way down. It doesn't matter what laws you've written down, what courts you ha…

Modern democracies have stuff like free press, strong legislative opposition, and unions which will mount an effective resistance when faced with a tyrant.

Both Italy and Argentina elected a pretty dictatorial rulers, but neither successfully removed any civil rights from their citizens as a result, as the democratic institutions mobilized an effective resistance.

As a comparison to the USA, in a healthy democracy, the protests we are seeing in LA would not be spontaneous and organically arise from normal everyday people, but they would be called for and organized by unions, civil rights organizations, opposition parties, etc.

EDIT: Thinking about this further, the lack of participation from unions, human rights organizations, opposition parties, etc. during the anti-ICE protests, is much more common in unambiguous dictatorships like Russia or Iran.

Re: Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

#738

Post by runarberg »

overfeed wrote: post #308
runarberg wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of democracy. In a democracy you cannot vote your self a dictator. A democracy has democratic institutions such as courts and different branches of government, or systems in place which prevent any one individual from misusing their power, or grabbing more power then they have been handed from the electorate. In a democracy people can vote for the Devil him self, and the Devil h…

> This is a fundamental misunderstanding of democracy. In a democracy you cannot vote your self a dictator Self-coups are a thing, and the best person to subvert a democracy is one who already wields considerable power within one. History is replit, unless you're doing the no-true-scottsman shuffle on the topic of democracy - if so, carry on.

The true Scotsman fallacy is not relevant here because the modern concept of democracy is a constantly evolving term. The modern democracy includes stuff like civil liberties, equal rights, human rights (including minority rights), and protections from tyranny. Many of these (particularly human rights) only arose in the post World War II era. Now coups do indeed happen, but those are the result of an entity overpowering the democratic institutions, not the result of people voting them selves a dictator. If the people vote them selves a dictator, then obviously at least some of the democratic institutions which are supposed to protect those rights were insufficient, or altogether absent.

Re: Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

#739

Post by thrance »

laurent_du wrote: post #713
aaronbaugher wrote: post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes a lot of words to convince people not to believe what they can see for themselves in video.

Not really? These people will simply disregard the clips, claiming they are a piece of right-wing propaganda, and that the protest are peaceful, because how could it be otherwise? Of course fighting ICE, feds, and helping criminals (in some case drug dealers and even at least one murderer) is inherently peaceful, just like the BLM riots were.

You're one of them. Seen the protester getting trampled by LAPD on their horses? Seen the journalist getting shot gratuitously at point-blank by a cop? AFAIK, no was was hurt by protesters. The cops on the other hand...

And let's not even mention the reason behind it all: ICE's torture center, and the multiple raids they carry in the city, to abduct legal immigrants.

Re: Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

#740

Post by 542354234235 »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #441
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want something like this to work, federal agents need to do it Doing the arrests? Sure. Intimidating protesters for partisan messaging while desecrating the honour of our armed forces? No.

They are doing arrests and others are trying to block them from doing arrests. That is why the National Guard had to step it, because local law enforcement did nothing to protect ICE from the mobs that try to set free illegals.

The anti-commandeering doctrine prevents the federal government from directly compelling states to implement or enforce federal law. It has been ruled on time and time again, from 1842 when Justice Joseph Story affirmed it [1] to Justice Samuel Alito in 2018 [2].

The balance between State and Federal power is part of how the country works. You can’t just call in the military whenever States refuse to help you, which they aren’t obligated to do.

[1] “The clause relating to fugitive slaves is found in the national Constitution, and not in that of any State. It might well be deemed an unconstitutional exercise of the power of interpretation to insist that the States are bound to provide means to carry into effect the duties of the National Government nowhere delegated or entrusted to them by the Constitution.” Prigg v. Pennsylvania https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/41/539/

[2] “Congress may not simply ‘commandeer the legislative process of the States by directly compelling them to enact and enforce a federal regulatory program.” Murphy v. National Collegiate Athletic Association https://www.oyez.org/cases/2017/16-476

Post reply on HN