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Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#731

Post by rafaelmn »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #436
esseph wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well you normally don't kill someone else if you fall off a roof. Running a car at highway speeds into something or someone else has a much higher chance of injuring or killing multiple people besides the driver.

“Older drivers have 3 to 20 times higher risk of fatal crash than non-older drivers” [1]. We simply don’t have those data for roofers. [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01674...

I think OP was saying that it's riskier for OTHERS in traffic - which should be the main thing with reissuing a drivers license.

Like motorcycles are orders of magnitude higher risk for (including fatal) accidents - but they aren't as dangerous for other traffic participants so they get licensed.

If motorcycles were killing orders of magnitude more pedestrians or other traffic participants than cars they would get banned immediately.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#732

Post by SarahC_ »

rayiner wrote: post #715
FranzFerdiNaN wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just let two immigrants in to replace me. Much cheaper and easier than raising kids.

It would be hard to distill the fallacy of human fungibility into a purer form than this. If you’re say Danish, the kids you raise will be Danish. The immigrants won’t be Danish, they’ll be like the people from their country of origin: https://www.sup.org/books/economics-and-finance/culture-tran... . And as a result, they won’t be nearly as economically productive as Danes, ironically undermining the whole point of i…

Far right talking points!

They'll be as Danish and any other Danes, just choosing to live life as they see fit.

>"And as a result, they won’t be nearly as economically productive as Danes, ", how does someone with a different religion, or choice for music make them less economically productive? Are you suggesting they don't know white collar skills? Or are less intelligent due to were they were born?

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#733

Post by SarahC_ »

tomp wrote: post #506
timschmidt wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pension is a Ponzi scheme. Explained in terms of economic theory, if everybody works and saves in time period 1, and retires and receives pension in time period 2, then... their pension is worthless, because there's infinite inflation, because no more goods and services get produced. You've created an impossible situation which will never exist and then offered it as an example of why taking care of the elderly, so…

> why taking care of the elderly, something humans have done since before recorded history Well yeah, but before government-organised pension, it was your kids taking care of you when you get older, so the system was much more balanced (or rather, only imbalanced on the micro scale, not at a mega scale we see now...)

>something humans have done since before recorded history

Inuits would leave their old out in the snow, and walk away. Just saying.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#734

Post by [deleted] »

rayiner wrote: post #715
FranzFerdiNaN wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just let two immigrants in to replace me. Much cheaper and easier than raising kids.

It would be hard to distill the fallacy of human fungibility into a purer form than this. If you’re say Danish, the kids you raise will be Danish. The immigrants won’t be Danish, they’ll be like the people from their country of origin: https://www.sup.org/books/economics-and-finance/culture-tran... . And as a result, they won’t be nearly as economically productive as Danes, ironically undermining the whole point of i…

[deleted]

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#735

Post by thordenmark »

This is the problem with retirement systems built on Ponzi schemes. The low birth rate has accelerated the inevitable crash.

If my understanding is correct, Norway has a system based on investment in the country's economy, in particular oil production in the North Sea. And they are not needing the same austerity measures to retirement benefits.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#736

Post by nicbou »

rayiner wrote: post #715
FranzFerdiNaN wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just let two immigrants in to replace me. Much cheaper and easier than raising kids.

It would be hard to distill the fallacy of human fungibility into a purer form than this. If you’re say Danish, the kids you raise will be Danish. The immigrants won’t be Danish, they’ll be like the people from their country of origin: https://www.sup.org/books/economics-and-finance/culture-tran... . And as a result, they won’t be nearly as economically productive as Danes, ironically undermining the whole point of i…

What makes Danish children productive is not their Danish blood, it's the culture and infrastructure that they operate in. The children of any nation would be equally capable.

As an immigrant myself, I find the second article silly. You import people according to your own criteria, and they arrive pre-raised and pre-educated. A larger proportion of them will leave the country before retirement age. It's a hell of a deal for a country, and that's why it's everyone's solution.

Immigrants are a much bigger drain on the country they are leaving.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#737

Post by close04 »

Night_Thastus wrote: post #728

Realistically, what are countries supposed to do? Almost every single industrialized country has a birth rate below replacement, so there's fewer younger people to help carry the burdens. Medical care means the elderly live on and on and on, draining enormous costs as they age. I'm not trying to be cruel, but from a pure numbers sense it makes perfect sense. Would you prefer taxes go up instead? Lessen spending on in…

Realistically productivity increased by leaps and bounds over the past few decades. If leaders can’t figure out how to take advantage of that instead of taking advantage of the people then they have no business leading a country.

The solution they are applying now is a dead end, literally. It doesn’t scale, the only place it leads to is people guaranteed to die “at work”.

And elephant in the room, people in their late 60s aren’t even close to productive compared to the younger employees and if you lose your job in your 50s or early 60s you’re condemned to a decade or 2 of being supported by the family if you’re lucky.

So a person in this position is a hidden “tax” on the tax payers in the family, or on the companies who still employ them, if any still have them at that age. Countries are better off just directly taxing the companies regardless of whether they hire 70 year olds. But that won’t happen.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#738

Post by throwaway290 »

sdeframond wrote: post #724
throwaway290 wrote: post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But we don't want to work less, we want more stuff. Hold on. That's what tech is for right? certain people on this forum keep saying we don't want to work. They say it's OK that they steal our art to train AI that takes our jobs, because then we can finally chillax and not work. But now apparently we also must keep working the remaining shitty jobs to not starve until we die? who is supposed to win here??

Obviously it depends a lot but, as white-collars tech people, we can already work less. What's preventing us from going on sabbatical ? We would earn less, sure, but do we really need that money? I mean it is buying us things that our parents didnt have so it should be possible to do without, no? Again, that's a different story for poor people.

Yeah I guess it answers the question who wins (for now). for sure it's just a problem for copywriters who will need to work as roofers until the ever increasing retirement age because a thing trained on stolen text now does the copywriting. The tech people who made it happen can just chill and tell everybody how they can work less while snowboarding in the alps.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#739

Post by oezi »

csomar wrote: post #655
newswangerd wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels like the problem is that we've drastically improved people's lifespans, but not their healthspans. Back when these systems started getting implemented, you could reasonably work up to the retirement age without too many issues. Nowadays, people may be living to 80 instead of 60, but our ability to work and willingness to hire people past 60 hasn't gone up with the increase in lifespan.

We did not improve people's lifespans. At least not that much. What happened is that young people die less due to less hazardous conditions which improved the average age. Also the average age is not the problem. The problem is that social security was setup as a ponzi scheme (younger pays for older) instead of a saving scheme (each one build a nest for himself). A ponzi scheme will eventually implode but if you mani…

> We did not improve people's lifespans

Are you sure about that? The statistic I always heard is that we have seen a 1 year rise in life expectancy every 4 years for the past 80 years.

I don't necessarily agree with the Ponzi scheme. If the ratio of old people to young people is constant then the system can be made to work with setting the retirement age without changing the burden on the young. The issue is that this ratio was reduced because the population isn't growing anymore. We need to find a new retirement age to balance this (or start a transition to a saving scheme, which might take at least 100 years).

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#740

Post by pillefitz »

charcircuit wrote: post #730
wsatb wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said there’s nothing sad about it and then followed it up with some pretty sad realities. It’s incredibly sad. People should be working less as we advance as a society, not more.

Working means that you are providing value to others. As we advance as a society a single person is able to contribute more and more value to others. Why maintain the same amount of total value being added to society when we can push further and accelerate providing value to one another?

By value you mean furthering the individualization and alienation by technology, which destroys the planet and gives us what, AI data centers? And the AI agents won't even do our jobs?
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