In general, people are going to interpret this EO with their own lens. Unsurprisingly, reasonable people may disagree on the merits of the EO as a whole. However this part of the EO is pretty concerning > 'The President and the Attorney General, subject to the President’s supervision and control, shall provide authoritative interpretations of law for the executive branch' and later > 'No employee of the executive bra…
Ostensibly, this EO is meant to remove power from bureaucratically controlled agencies in the government. The right have been complaining that real power has been usurped from the institutions mentioned in the constitution, and centered in a professional managerial class, that works below the surface, and has no culpability or exposure to voters. That's all massively up for debate obviously, but this EO seems to be a…
"Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order
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Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order
#732In general, people are going to interpret this EO with their own lens. Unsurprisingly, reasonable people may disagree on the merits of the EO as a whole. However this part of the EO is pretty concerning > 'The President and the Attorney General, subject to the President’s supervision and control, shall provide authoritative interpretations of law for the executive branch' and later > 'No employee of the executive bra…
Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order
#733Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm seeing a lot of helpful discussion, and I'm learning a lot. It's been easy for me to skip over the hyperbole.
When I made that post this was in the main branch (e.g. starting at top comment and going down you hit this before any leaf): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43103830
Are there any parts that you think violate the guidelines specifically?
Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order
#734Earlier quoted context omitted.
If the Supreme Court and Congress has no enforcement power, though, what recourse is there?
> If the Supreme Court and Congress has no enforcement power, though, what recourse is there? While maybe not practical for the president, but at least for various cabinet Secretaries or Directors: if they do not follow court-issued orders could be found in contempt and jailed until the corrective orders are implemented?
Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order
#735Earlier quoted context omitted.
I know this sounds corny, but people are the recourse. We are part of the checks and balances. Whether it is as overt as a soldier refusing to follow an illegal order knowing they are risking court marshal, or as clandestine as mid-level bureaucrat slow-walking damaging policies, or people actually voting in local-to-national elections. Democracy is not a passive form of government.
> I know this sounds corny, but people are the recourse. We are part of the checks and balances. By "we" here, it seems you mean bureaucrats. But what if your opinions, as an individual, unelected bureaucrat are bad? I don't care what a mid-level bureaucrat's opinions on what policies are damaging is. He could be a neo-nazi for all I know. Constitutionally, we should go with the opinions of the people who won an elec…
Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order
#736In general, people are going to interpret this EO with their own lens. Unsurprisingly, reasonable people may disagree on the merits of the EO as a whole. However this part of the EO is pretty concerning > 'The President and the Attorney General, subject to the President’s supervision and control, shall provide authoritative interpretations of law for the executive branch' and later > 'No employee of the executive bra…
Ostensibly, this EO is meant to remove power from bureaucratically controlled agencies in the government. The right have been complaining that real power has been usurped from the institutions mentioned in the constitution, and centered in a professional managerial class, that works below the surface, and has no culpability or exposure to voters. That's all massively up for debate obviously, but this EO seems to be a…
The motivation of the EO was clearly articulated all throughout the campaign that, as you say, even within the executive branch there's a large swath of career bureaucrats who kind of do their own thing. And so if the people vote for something else, there's kind of a limit to what any new administration can actually accomplish. Arguably, this is by design and provides valuable stability, but I think you have to at least acknowledge that it's there, and people aren't crazy for noticing it and trying to change that if the career bureaucrats aren't actually on their side.
I thought Trump was laughably ineffective his first time around. I chalked it up to all the Russia Manchurian Candidate stuff and Trump's constant flailing and hiring and firing of staff. But I'm wondering now how much of it really was this large bureaucracy in the executive branch not really moving in step with the new administration, which is interesting to me. I think there was a JD Vance interview (maybe with Ross Douthat in NYTimes?) where he says people throw around "constitutional crisis" a lot, but that he felt we were already in one because Trump was asking the generals stuff about troops in Afghanistan and they weren't answering.
I know people here are primed to read the worst into everything, and there's some seriously apocalyptic predictions in this discussion. But my first impression is that the EO reads fairly mundanely and is meant to sound like it's addressing the "hostile bureaucracy" situation that folks on the right have been talking about for years. I guess we'll see in a couple years, how it all plays out. I wish people predicted stuff more and then looked back to calibrate themselves based on the results.
Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order
#737Earlier quoted context omitted.
> This EO eliminates the concept of an illegal order since the law would be whatever the executive interprets it to be. Isn't this exactly how it works? They interpret it and that stands unless challenged in court.
The nuance here, based on the EO, is rank file and employees of these agencies must now rely on the sole interpretation of the law by either the president or the AG instead of themselves. These _were_ independent agencies who handled their own interpretation of the law. If you combine this EO with the Supreme Court immunity decision, there may very well be a situation where a rank and file employee acts illegally bas…
At first glance, it seems like it's a positive thing for all members of the executive branch adhere to the same interpretation of the law. It's the definition of "arbitrary and capricious" if one executive agency interprets the same law differently than another. As others have commented, the president or AG's interpretation is still open to judicial review.
Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order
#738Earlier quoted context omitted.
Where are the mass protests? Are there even any people in the streets?
There is no social cohesion or solidarity in the US, that's the biggest problem In France if they'd raise the price of baguettes by 10% you'd have strikes from teachers, public transportation drivers, dock workers, train drivers, doctors, trash truck drivers, &c. all at once, after a week it would be complete chaos and the government would have no choice but to negotiate In the US everyone is playing their little gam…
That was an unexpectedly good turnaround vs the first statement. Damn, I was not expecting to have such a hard laugh.
You should also add "social" media to your picture. I think that has ravaged whatever was left of social cohesion over here.
Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order
#739Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Autocracies can be very stable... Sure, if you kill all dissenters , keep population terrified and into the dark, remove all sources of information with propaganda then things could stay like that for a while.
That isn't really what happened in Singapore.
Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order
#740Earlier quoted context omitted.
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That "guidance" is not so easy when the tyrant has control of the most powerful military the planet has ever seen I have no idea how you even propose that to happen