Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#731

Post by iggldiggl » Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 6:11 PM UTC

sadcherry wrote: post #403

currymj wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

among intercity trains run by Deutsche Bahn, the on-time rate hovers around 2/3. it's technically true that "most were on time", but one third being late is really terrible, especially since you often need to make a tight connection. even if your family has no justifiable basis for believing what they do about DB, they happen to be correct by luck. https://ibir.deutschebahn.com/2023/en/combined-management-re...

I wouldn't call a 7 minutes delay "terrible".

It is if you miss a connection that only runs hourly or so. (Even with a half-hourly connection it'd be annoying.)

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#732

Post by throw4950sh06 » Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 6:15 PM UTC

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #689

throw4950sh06 wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people actually try these things... And not writing an academic paper about it doesn't make it wrong.

Not writing an academic paper about it doesn't make it right either. This is the problem, when it's just hearsay, the rest of us have nothing to judge its accuracy with. When looking at something as complex as people's behaviour, then it's worth allowing for seasonal variations in public transport use (e.g. when it's raining people may decide to get the bus rather than walk). Could it be related to the length of thei…

You can look into it yourself. This is a web forum, not university.

I don't understand how are your questions going to answer anything anyways - it's not like the answer is going to be the same anywhere.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#733

Post by eptcyka » Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 6:34 PM UTC

immibis wrote: post #723

weinzierl wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how it works. That's how it works in Germany. Everywhere else I just swipe my mobile and I am done.

German people have an understandable historical revulsion to the government tracking their every move.

Yes, that is why, instead of using a payment network, they choose to use an app, which still needs one to transact within the financial system and lets the government adjacent company run arbitrary code on one’s phone.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#734

Post by sureglymop » Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 6:47 PM UTC

pimeys wrote: post #579

My favorite part of this deal is how you can use the same ticket in every city in Germany. Before you had to learn which app to install and then go through the (usually) broken registration setup. And you needed to learn the zones too. Now I just arrive to a city and hop into the transport method of my choice.

This is my favorite thing about transport in Switzerland. If you have a general subscription you can use trains, buses, even ships. There are exceptions such as privately ran gondolas going up to mountains but mostly you can just go anywhere without worrying about it.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#735

Post by 6510 » Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 6:48 PM UTC

Nullabillity wrote: post #678

6510 wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has secretly become unrealistic to have cars in a city, we still do it but more out of tradition. You wouldn't build parks (tho that would be nice) 1 parked car, the road next to it and the second side walk take about as much space as an apartment and we stack those one on top of the other. Something like this is quite hilarious if you think about it. https://www.alamy.com/parking-in-the-courtyard-of-high-rise-...…

You don't have to build it like that. Where I live now, the parking lot is effectively the basement under the apartment buildings and playground. You'd barely interact with it unless you're driving.

Housing is getting so expensive that people share tiny apartments while still able to afford two cars. With that ratio you need 10 floors of parking for 10 floors of housing.

I always thought it funny how popular elevators are for vertical travel. A monorail station in the basement or even a ski lift seems a lot less space consuming.

If it means you can get a home 120m2 (1300 sq ft) in stead of 60m2 (650 sq ft) it seems worth considering.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#736

Post by Zamiel_Snawley » Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 6:51 PM UTC

graemep wrote: post #661

SECProto wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funding road repairs, construction, and expansion from general tax revenues is similarly subsidizing a different mode of transit, and it's likely a much higher value than the 3b€ you mention (and likely more than overall railway sector subsidizing, tho I'm not familiar with Germany's budget). Also recognizing that other positive externalities exist, but pricing them at $0, seems silly.

I do not know about Germany, but most countries have taxes on car ownership and fuel, so you need to offset those against the expenditure on roads. Road construction and maintenance also benefits other road users - transport vehicles, cyclists and pedestrians and emergency vehicles etc.

The degradation of road surfaces is caused almost entirely by automobiles.

Think of how often dedicated walking and cycling routes need to be repaved—almost never.

Car owners only pay about half of the cost of road maintenance in the US[1].

[1] https://frontiergroup.org/resources/who-pays-roads/

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#737

Post by hackeraccount » Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 6:55 PM UTC

resonious wrote: post #314

postpawl wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Focusing on the cost-per-tonne for carbon reduction misses the broader value of railways. They're not just about reducing emission! They facilitate daily commutes, expand job opportunities, and help drive the economy. It’s a subsidy for businesses too.

Gp said they know about these other factors but doesn't know how to price them. Do you know a way?

I know a way.

Politics.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#738

Post by wkat4242 » Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 6:58 PM UTC

intellix wrote: post #372

wkat4242 wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a matter of train infrastructure and frequency keeping up with demand. There's a big lag there. You don't just buy 100 new trains overnight. It's a symptom of ramping up. Not of high usage. I live in Barcelona and here the metro comes every 2-3 minutes. Even during the night it might be 7 minutes. This helps so much with congestion but also trip planning: no need to check train times before you go. Id imagine…

€21.35 for a T-Usual card which allows unlimited travel on all public transport for 30 days, yet you still have people in here kicking and screaming to use their car and roads

Yeah this is true but it's a minority. And some people come from outside the city where it's more understandable.

I think Ada Colau did really great pedestrianising streets like Consell de Cent, unfortunately Collboni doesn't seem to care as much.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#739

Post by grues-dinner » Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 7:03 PM UTC

cdrini wrote: post #561

The 49 euro ticket is a phenomenally good deal. Normal transit tickets vary per city, but for example in Berlin it's 3.50 per trip. So if you take transit twice a day for 7 days, you already recoup the cost of the Deutschland ticket, which lasts the entire month! This makes it good even for tourists who stay for ~a week. At 59, it's 9 days of two trips to recoup the cost -- still very worth it for someone living in G…

A London monthly travel card is £235 from zone 4 and £300 from zone 6. That's 420 to 540 CAD, and you get the pleasure of sweating in the tunnels, freezing on the overground platforms waiting for the next train 30 minutes and cancellations left right and centre.

At least they've finally got their shit together with mobile coverage.

Of course you get to use the buses too for that, and some of those were run by DB until this year, so it's nice to have been subsiding the the nice German tickets! They sold up to private equity, because of course they did, it's Britain and everything has to be private equity.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#740

Post by bastawhiz » Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 7:07 PM UTC

akoboldfrying wrote: post #414

bastawhiz wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This analogy simply doesn't work because transit isn't fungible. Trains and air travel or cars simply aren't "the same park". The benefit of trains is objectively not just the carbon footprint. The money spent by the government benefits the public in other ways, not just environmentally. Ignoring the wear on (and cost of ownership of) personal vehicles, for instance, dismisses a huge amount of savings for folks who c…

All the things you listed are examples of "other axes" that I listed as being valid objections. I also agree that it's hard to estimate the dollar cost or benefit of these things. But I think we do have to attempt to estimate it, since we have no other sensible way to decide how to allocate public funds. It's not even all that difficult to estimate, really. For example, every business does it, of necessity.

> It's not even all that difficult to estimate, really. For example, every business does it, of necessity.

This isn't even true. I run a business, and I frequently make decisions based on what I believe to be the right thing to do rather than what the data shows as being the most profitable outcome. The very notion of a "loss leader" is driven on fuzzy data where execs simply hope the loss in revenue from sales is made up for in other benefits that can't be concretely valued.