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Ilya Sutskever's SSI Inc raises $1B

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Re: Ilya Sutskever's SSI Inc raises $1B

#731

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have no evidence that superintelligence will be developed. Fundamentally, we have no evidence of anything that will happen in the future. All we do is to extrapolate from the past through the present, typically using some kind of theory of how the world operates. The belief that we will eventually (whether it's this year or in 1000+ years), really only hinges on the following 3 assumptions: 1) The human brain is…

>> Fundamentally, we have no evidence of anything that will happen in the future. Yeah, by this line of thought Jesus will descend from Heaven and save us all. By the same line of fantasy, "give us billions to bring AGI", why not "gimme a billion to bring Jesus. I'll pray really hard, I promise!" It's all become a disgusting scam, effectively just religious. Believe in AGI that's all there is to it. In practice it's…

This reply seems eerily similar to folks months/years before the wright brothers proved flight was indeed possible.

All the building evidence was there but people just refused to believe it was possible.

I am not buying that AI right now is going to displace every job or change the world in the next 5 years but I would t bet against world impacts in that timefram. The writing is in the wall. I am old enough to remember AI efforts in the late 80s and early 90s. We saw how very little progress was made.

The progress made in the past 10 years is pretty insane.

Re: Ilya Sutskever's SSI Inc raises $1B

#732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to repeatedly insist that hidden computation is a distinction of any relevance whatsoever. First of all, your understanding of the architecture itself is mistaken. A transformer can iterate endlessly because each token it produces allows it a forward pass, and each of these tokens is postpended to its input in the next inference. That's the autoregressive in autoregressive transformer, and the entire reason…

Sure - a transformer can iterate endlessly by generating tokens, but this is no substitute for iterating internally and maintaining internal context and goal-based attention. One reason why just blathering on endlessly isn't the same as thinking deeply before answering, is that it's almost impossible to maintain long-term context/attention. Try it. "Think step by step" or other attempts to prompt the model into gener…

> One reason why just blathering on endlessly...

First of all, I would urge you to stop arbitrarily using negative words to make an argument. Saying that LLMs are "blathering" is equivalent to saying you and I are "smacking meat onto plastic to communicate" - it's completely empty of any meaning. This "vibes based arguing" is common in these discussions and a massive waste of time.

Now, I don't really understand what you mean by "almost impossible to maintain long-term context/attention". I'm writing fiction in my spare time, LLMs do very well on this by my testing, even subtle and complex simulations of environments, including keeping track of multiple "off-screen" dynamics like a pot boiling over.

There is nothing "1-dimensional" about the context, unless you mean that it is directional in time, which any human thought is as well, of course. As I said in my original reply, each token is represented by a multidimensional embedding, and even that is abstracted away by the time inference reaches the later layers. The word "citrus" isn't just a word for the LLM, just as it isn't just a word for you. Its internal representation retrieves all the contextual understanding that is related to it. Properties, associated feelings, usage - every relevant abstract concept is considered. And these concepts interact which every embedding of every other token in the input in a learned way, and with the position they have relative to each other. And then when an output is generated from that dynamic, said output influences the dynamic in a way that is just as multidimensional.

The model can maintain context as rich as it wants, and it can built upon that context in whatever way it wants as well. The problem is that in some domains, it didn't get enough training time to build robust transformation rules, leading it to draw false conclusions.

You should reflect on why you are only able to provide vague and under defined, often incorrect, arguments here. You're drawing distinctions that don't really exist and trying to hide that by appealing to false intuitions.

> The reasoning weakness... it's a fundamental architecturally-based limitation...

You have provided no evidence or reasoning for that conclusion. The river crossing puzzle is exactly what I had in mind when talking about specific domains. It is a common trick question with little to no variation and LLMs have overfit on that specific form of the problem. Translate it to any other version - say transferring potatoes from one pot to the next, or even a mathematical description of sets being modified - and the models do just fine. This is like tricking a human with the "As I was going to Saint Ives" question, exploiting their expectation of having to do arithmetic because it looks superficially like a math problem, and then concluding that they are fundamentally unable to reason.

> People like Demis Hassabis (CEO of DeepMind) acknowledge the weakness too.

What weakness? That current LLMs aren't as good as humans when reasoning over certain domains? I don't follow him personally but I doubt he would have the confidence to make any claims about fundamental inabilities of the transformer architecture. And even if he did, I could name you a couple of CEOs of AI labs with better models that would disagree, or even Turing award laureates. This is by no means a consensus stance in the expert community.

Re: Ilya Sutskever's SSI Inc raises $1B

#733
post #636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're talking about is something in the vein of exponential super intelligence. Realistically what actually ends up happening imo, we get human level AGI and hit a ceiling there. Agents replace large portions of the current service economy greatly increasing automation / efficiency for companies. People continue to live their lives, as the idea of having a human level AGI personal assistant becomes normalized a…

Looking back at the history of artificial cognition machines, how many of them hit a ceiling at human-level capabilities? - A simple calculator can beat any human at arithmetic - A word processor with a hard disk is orders of magnitude better than any human at memorizing text - No human can approach the ELO of a chess program running on a cheap laptop - No human polymath has journeyman-level knowledge of a tiny fract…

Yeah so, I just tried a new experimental LLM today.

Changed my mind. Think you’re right. At the very least, these models will reach polymath comprehension in every field that exists. And PhD level expertise in every field all at once is by definition superhuman, since people currently are time constrained by limited lifespans.

Re: Ilya Sutskever's SSI Inc raises $1B

#734
post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Post-scarcity is impossible because of positional goods. (ie, things that become more valuable not because they exist but because you have more of them than the other guy.) Notice Star Trek writers forget they're supposed to be post scarcity like half the time, especially since Roddenberry isn't around to stop them from turning shows into generic millenial dramas. Like, Picard owns a vineyard or something? That's a r…

> things that become more valuable not because they exist but because you have more of them than the other guy. But if you can simply ask the AI to give you more of that thing, and it gives it to you, free of charge, that fixes that issue, no? > Notice Star Trek writers forget they're supposed to be post scarcity like half the time, especially since Roddenberry isn't around to stop them from turning shows into generi…

> But if you can simply ask the AI to give you more of that thing, and it gives it to you, free of charge, that fixes that issue, no?

It makes it not work anymore, and it might not be a physical good. It's usually something that gives you social status or impresses women, but if everyone knows you pressed a button they can press too it's not impressive anymore.

Re: Ilya Sutskever's SSI Inc raises $1B

#735
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one single person can cause a nuclear detonation alone.

The President of the United States has sole nuclear launch authority. To stop him would either take the cabinet and VP invoking the 25th amendment and removing him from office, or a military officer to disobey direct orders.

Are you under the impression the president can actually do it? It's not true, someone else at least needs to at least push another button. I'm 100% sure of what I said in regards to the USA, just not hidden nuke programs I wouldn't know about. No person in the USA can single handedly trigger a nuclear weapon launch. What he has authority to do is ask someone else to launch a nuke, and that person will then need to decide to do it.

Even the president needs someone else to push a button (and in those rooms there's also more than one person). There's literally no human that can do it alone without convincing at least 1 or 2 other people, depending on who it is.

Re: Ilya Sutskever's SSI Inc raises $1B

#736
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The argument about AGI from LLMs is not based on the current state of LLMs, but on the rate of progress over the last 5+ years or so. And what I'm saying is that I find that argument to be incredibly weak. I've seen it time and time again, and honestly at this point just feels like a "humans should be a hundred feet tall based on on their rate of change in their early years" argument. While I've also been amazed at…

Expecting the rate of progress to drop off so abruptly after realistically just a few years of serious work on the problem seems like the more unreasonable and grander prediction to me than expecting it to continue at its current pace for even just 5 more years.

I don’t see why it’s unreasonable. Training a model that is an order of magnitude bigger requires (at least) an order of magnitude more data, an order of magnitude more time, hardware, energy, and money.

Getting an order of magnitude more data isn’t easy anymore. From GPT2 to 3 we (only) had to scale up to the internet. Now? You can look at other sources like video and audio, but those are inherently more expensive. So your data acquisition costs aren’t linear anymore, they’re something like 50x or 100x. Your quality will also dip because most speech (for example) isn’t high-quality prose, it contains lots of fillers, rambling, and transcription inaccuracies.

And this still doesn’t fix fundamental long-tail issues. If you have a concept that the model needs to see 10x to understand, you might think scaling your data 10x will fix it. But your data might not contain that concept 10x if it’s rare. It might contain 9 other one-time things. So your model won’t learn it.

Re: Ilya Sutskever's SSI Inc raises $1B

#737

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, the race to develop AGI is very real, and we also have no way of knowing how close anyone is to reaching it. It seems pretty irresponsible for AI boosters to say it’ll happen within 5 years then. There’s a pretty important engineering distinction between the Manhattan Project and current research towards AGI. At the time of the Manhattan Project scientists already had a pretty good idea of how to build the…

> It seems pretty irresponsible for AI boosters to say it’ll happen within 5 years then. Agreed. Do they?

Sam Altman said 5 years.

Demis Hassabis said 50/50 it happens in 5 years.

Jensen Huang said 5 years.

Elon Musk said 2 years.

Leopold Aschenbrenner said 5 years.

Matt Garman said 2 years for all programming jobs.

And I think most relevant to this article, since SSI says they won’t release a product until they have superintelligence, I think the fact that VCs are giving them money means they’ve been pretty optimistic in statements about about their timelines.

Re: Ilya Sutskever's SSI Inc raises $1B

#738

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure - a transformer can iterate endlessly by generating tokens, but this is no substitute for iterating internally and maintaining internal context and goal-based attention. One reason why just blathering on endlessly isn't the same as thinking deeply before answering, is that it's almost impossible to maintain long-term context/attention. Try it. "Think step by step" or other attempts to prompt the model into gener…

> One reason why just blathering on endlessly... First of all, I would urge you to stop arbitrarily using negative words to make an argument. Saying that LLMs are "blathering" is equivalent to saying you and I are "smacking meat onto plastic to communicate" - it's completely empty of any meaning. This "vibes based arguing" is common in these discussions and a massive waste of time. Now, I don't really understand what…

> And even if he did, I could name you a couple of CEOs of AI labs with better models that would disagree, or even Turing award laureates. This is by no means a consensus stance in the expert community.

I disagree - there is pretty widespread agreement that reasoning is a weakness, even among the best models, (and note Chollet's $1M ARC prize competition to spur improvements), but the big labs all seem to think that post-training can fix it. To me this is whack-a-mole wishful thinking (reminds me of CYC - just add more rules!). At least one of your "Turing award laureates" thinks Transformers are a complete dead end as far as AGI goes.

We'll see soon enough who's right.

Re: Ilya Sutskever's SSI Inc raises $1B

#739

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One reason why just blathering on endlessly... First of all, I would urge you to stop arbitrarily using negative words to make an argument. Saying that LLMs are "blathering" is equivalent to saying you and I are "smacking meat onto plastic to communicate" - it's completely empty of any meaning. This "vibes based arguing" is common in these discussions and a massive waste of time. Now, I don't really understand what…

> And even if he did, I could name you a couple of CEOs of AI labs with better models that would disagree, or even Turing award laureates. This is by no means a consensus stance in the expert community. I disagree - there is pretty widespread agreement that reasoning is a weakness, even among the best models, (and note Chollet's $1M ARC prize competition to spur improvements), but the big labs all seem to think that…

A weakness of the current models in some domains considered useful, yes - but not a fundamental limitation of the architecture. I see no consensus on the latter whatsoever.

The ARC challenge tests spatial reasoning, something we humans are obviously quite good at, given 4 billion years of evolutionary optimization. But as I said, there is no "general reasoning", it's all domain dependent. A child does better at the spatial problems in ARC given that it has that previously mentioned evolutionary advantage, but just as we don't worship calculators as superior intelligences because they can multiply 10^9 digit numbers in milliseconds, we shouldn't draw fundamental conclusions from humans doing well at a problem that they are in many ways built to solve. If the failures of previous predictions - those that considered Chess or Go as unmistakable signals of true general reasoning - have taught us anything, it's that general reasoning simply does not exist.

The bet of current labs is synthetic data in pre-training, or slight changes of natural data that induces more generalization pressure for multi-step transformations on state in various domains. The goal is to change the data so models learn these transformations more readily and develop good heuristics for them, so not the non-continuous patching that you suggest.

But yes, the next generation of models will probably reveal much more about where we're headed.

Re: Ilya Sutskever's SSI Inc raises $1B

#740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're talking about is something in the vein of exponential super intelligence. Realistically what actually ends up happening imo, we get human level AGI and hit a ceiling there. Agents replace large portions of the current service economy greatly increasing automation / efficiency for companies. People continue to live their lives, as the idea of having a human level AGI personal assistant becomes normalized a…

I think you underestimate what can be accomplished with human level agi. Human level agi could mean 1 million Von Neumann level intelligences cranking 24/7 on humanity's problems.

Yeah, I think you're probably right after further consideration and trying some new models today.
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