The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community • Hacker News Board

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#731

Post by seesaw » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 8:56 PM UTC

BriggyDwiggs42 wrote: post #729

a123b456c wrote: post #719

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, it's still possible to have non-transactional interactions. Many service providers appear truly surprised and then appreciative when I simply ask them how their day is going. Edit: Or maybe the surprise comes when they notice that I'm actually listening to their answer.

I don’t think this happened because of personal changes. Absent interference, people would almost certainly form close community. We need to look for the source of the interference, individual actions aren’t enough.

My experience is very similar. I believe there are two primary reasons for this: 1. People are wealthier, and wealthier people tend to be more independent. 2. Population density is higher. Places with lower density, such as villages still tend to have that people to people connection like in the old days

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#732

Post by PaperOliver » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 9:01 PM UTC

g9yuayon wrote: post #428

When I grew up in China, students in a school were divided into fixed classes. Those classes formed great communities, as we spent hours every day for at least three years and some for 6 years. Each class had a head teacher, who fostered the sense of community too. No one would mock people for geeking out. No one would mock people for not being good at sports. No one would mock those who struggled at academics. At le…

This reminds me of my time at school in the UK. At school we were divided into "houses" based on where you lived. You had to meet in your house twice a day so we all became friends and after school we would meet up and play basketball, football or skateboard in our rural village (this was around 2008 so smart phones were rare). In the winter when we got home we would just put our xbox 360 headsets on and play endless games of Gears of War or CoD MW2 together. You got as much social credit for being good at gaming as at you did for being sporty. Good times, and nowadays I still see those friends about once a month.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#733

Post by Scharkenberg » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 9:18 PM UTC

floren wrote: post #417

throwup238 wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bunch of places now have "mocktails" which are just cocktails without alcohol so you can one up your alcoholic friends by spending $3-5 per glass of sugar water.

Visit SF, you can easily spend $10 on a mocktail out here. Kinda makes sense, all the cost is in the labor and the cleaning, a shot of vodka is like $0.20

I would assume there is no vodka in a mocktail...

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#734

Post by Nextgrid » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 9:26 PM UTC

Nasrudith wrote: post #677

Nextgrid wrote: post #649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money is just a means of exchange. But basic human rights such as housing now being monetized and rented out and/or used as an investment means the endless pursuit of money is now mandatory to survive.

Now? How did you think housing work for millennia? It not being monetized before is a cold comfort when your labor and agricultural products are taxed directly instead.

Taxation has always been around in one form or another. But property ownership being out of reach of the masses is a relatively new thing.

Not that long ago, a blue collar family could afford to save enough to buy a family home in under a decade. Nowadays most blue-collar people (and in some countries such as the UK, even white collars) have no option but to rent perpetually.

And that's just property, not even taking into account inflation of everything else. Cars (which are necessities in many parts of the world) have also exploded in price, with entry-level models now approaching what high-end executive cars were just 15 years ago.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#735

Post by ToValueFunfetti » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 9:27 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #505

ToValueFunfetti wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Faith in something that is the basis for any morality absolutely does presuppose faith in something supernatural. If you know of anything in the natural world that proves the existence of right and wrong, by all means let me know. I don't disagree that theists lack empirical basis for morality, both because I don't think anyone does and because I don't believe there is an empirical basis for God. But it doesn't sound…

>If my friend Bob the sadist says he loves it when people starve, would you be in the right to tell him he's wrong? On what grounds? You first. You don't believe there is an empirical basis for God yet you believe morality absolutely presupposes faith in the supernatural. Presumably, you also consider yourself to have morality. On what supernaturally-derived basis would you (presumably) believe Bob is wrong? and give…

On the basis of utilitarian notions of right and wrong, I would have no issue with saying that Bob is objectively wrong- he disagrees with what I claim is objectively right. If all I had were preferences, I could no more claim Bob was wrong to prefer to be a murderer than I could claim he was wrong to prefer to be an art teacher. I say, 'I wouldn't do that if I were you', he replies, 'Good thing you're not!', end of discussion. And then I guess he would probably murder me. Or worse: teach me art.

Faith also beats preference here in that, given the premise that it is good to reduce suffering and increase happiness, I arrive at the same conclusions about morally correct actions regardless of the time and place that my mind happens to exist in. I can align my actions to the right choice even if I was raised to prefer something else. A slave owner prefers that slavery exists; a utilitarian slave owner can see that that is wrong and free their slaves.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#736

Post by Bjartr » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 9:37 PM UTC

ThunderSizzle wrote: post #728

verall wrote: post #700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not inflation, it's bad tax policy.

Please explain how 2x-3x housing costs in 4 years is due to tax policy.

Presumably the implication is that it's because lots of homes are being bought by real estate companies as long term investments that they may or may not even rent back out. This extra demand beyond people buying housing to, you know, live in it, drives up the price.

A different tax policy could disincentize this behavior, leading to lower demand and thus lower prices.

That's my current understanding of that perspective at least.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#737

Post by aleph_minus_one » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 10:02 PM UTC

DavidPiper wrote: post #540

vinnski wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like almost every community nowadays has to have their own Discord server or private Facebook group. Often a deal-breaker for the more privacy-conscious people, unfortunately

My initial reaction to your comment was that privacy-consciousness has always been a potential deal-breaker for social engagement - which I think is true, building connection is an inherently vulnerable activity - but it's interesting how the word "privacy" means something very different on- and off-line. We haven't ever lived in a world where not being "privacy-conscious" in a social setting could mean any of the fo…

> We used to think of privacy as something that exists between people. Now we think of it as something that is mediated by corporations.

I have never heard of the second interpretation. The second sentence should in my opinion rather be: "Now we think of it as something that is violated by corporations."

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#738

Post by conductr » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 10:35 PM UTC

floren wrote: post #479

conductr wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to completely elaborate on here but I think I am quite in the middle. It just happens to be far from norm. Or at least how i perceive it. He watches some age appropriate TV daily. He started gaming but probably gets in around a total of 5 hours a month on the switch. It will be the hardest thing not to give into. Right now it’s not allowed on weekdays. And only with restrictions on weekends (eg. All other activi…

This sounds like the sort of route I hope to take with my son when he's old enough. We've already made it past a year without ever sitting him down for TV/tablet/phone time (except video calls with grandparents) but I'm sure it only gets harder from here. I'd be interested in reading any more you've previously written on the subject, or any other sources you've based your guidelines on!

Good start! I feel like 90% of it is just putting in the effort and being intentional. Our son didn’t watch TV until about 18 months and the pandemic put us all in the house without childcare and our work went into overdrive. He went too hard on it for the first few months until we figured out how to balance things. We had no intention of starting that young but that’s how it happened.

I’ve not written on the topic. The main advice I can give is to always be prepared to channel their energy/boredom. We take a backpack of small toys and sticker books and putty/play dough into dine in restaurants. My kid really likes to know what to expect so we prepare him when we know he has to do something boring. Like we went to a funeral when he was 2 and we explained to him that we dressed up to show our respect and we have to sit still and be quiet to show respect. We told him adults might be crying because they’re sad. That’s kind of a weird extreme example but we do small versions of this pretty often.

Find ways to explain to them that even if other kids do something “we don’t do that”. This varies by kid and age. Be consistent and make sure everyone he is with understands (parents, grands, etc). Or set conditions, like only at grandmas or only on weekends. We set a lot of timers. You can play Mario for 20 minutes, he’s gotten to where he just says “yay! Hey Google, set a timer for 20 minutes” lol

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#739

Post by WarOnPrivacy » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 10:38 PM UTC

llm_trw wrote: post #606

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s weird that groups like the Elks have declined so much in recent decades, because it feels they really are the solution to a problem everyone complains about. Social orgs can supplement a healthy community. They can't replace one, however. A healthy community is one where it is trivial for kids to go on their own to a safe space. A place where they can Kid together, free from interfering adults.

I keep hearing all these people talking about kidding together. Kidding together means setting a cat on fire and laughing when it's screaming running around. It means beating the fat kid till he can't stand up. The idea that kids don't need adults is laughable to anyone who remembers being a kid.

> Kidding together means setting a cat on fire and laughing when it's screaming running around. It means beating the fat kid till he can't stand up.

This is very rarely true. I grew up with rural hill people and I was a skittish, annoying kid who got bullied a lot.

Bullying was something that mostly happened in isolation. I was at-risk at school or if I was out alone and ran into the wrong kids, like the local neanderthal who started shaving at 10.

Where I was safe was in groups. These were rough kids, sometimes brutally so. Feuds between youth could be extreme and the injuries were often serious. But those were between individuals or sometimes families. In groups, there were boundaries - a truce could be assumed.

Animal cruelty existed but wasn't overly common. It sometimes happened within feuds. ex:A pet would disappear and be found down a well. And like bullying, that happened in isolation.

Animal cruelty was never a social thing. Ever. Someone who entertained the notion could expect to get beat by the other kids until they thought differently. There was no tolerance for it.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#740

Post by theF00l » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 11:00 PM UTC

weberer wrote: post #21

I've noticed an uptick recently of large brands to start referring to themselves as "The [Brand] Community". The author pointed out Youtube here (who in an Orwellian manner calls their ToS "community guidelines") but I've also seen it with many other multi-million dollar companies such as Reddit, Twitter, etc. Young people today are reaching out for real support structures, but only receiving manipulation from corpor…

And on the employee side: "family", "tribe"