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Why are most sofas so bad?

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Re: Why are most sofas so bad?

#731

Post by thfuran »

arp242 wrote: post #202
dangus wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. Regular retailers aren’t immune. Let’s be real too: nobody’s going underneath the sofas at Crate and Barrel to see how they’re constructed. It doesn’t really matter that you can see and touch them. I don’t even think the luxury brands are much better (e.g., RH). They’ll give you some solid woods and finer materials where you can see them. They are better but not by the amount I would like. The cheapness i…

> nobody’s going underneath the sofas at Crate and Barrel to see how they’re constructed. I also don't really know what to look for. Most people don't. In the past you could more or less rely on the store being somewhat reliable and somewhat trustworthy. I say "somewhat" because of course you wouldn't fully trust a salesman, but by and large: you could more or less trust that something was "quality" if it was adverti…

>Burn the world, as long as I can sell my crummy sofa, because "free market allows it"

That is classic capitalism. Econ 101 notions of efficient free markets rely on all participants being perfect rational actors with perfect information. Snake oil salesmen have always relied on the fact that those assumptions are inaccurate.

Re: Why are most sofas so bad?

#732

Post by yareally »

rossjudson wrote: post #684
zac23or wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, there have been many bad things in the past. Floppy disks, cassettes and VHS were horrible technologies. Did you use tube radios? They broke all the time. The difference is that they weren't intentionally horrible, they were limitations of an era. But at some point, devices start to last a long time. My parents' first refrigerator ran without problems for over 10 years. I've had far fewer problems with CDS…

You made me laugh with "refrigerator ran without problems for over 10 years". My family cottage has a still-running refrigerator that's been there for close to 40 years. Third or fourth handle, though ;)

My grandparents still use a fridge from the 50s for beverages in their basement. It's amazing how long old refrigerators last

Re: Why are most sofas so bad?

#733

Post by watwut »

jajko wrote: post #613
closeparen wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Countries where middle class people rent have pretty "communist" tenant protection regimes. Being perpetually 30 days from a potential eviction is not a position most people can or should be okay with.

Feels a bit pointless to explain basics but I'll bite for the others - I dont know which country is like that, definitely not Switzerland, not Germany, France, Czech republic nor Slovakia (listing personal multiyear experiences). Neither of them has any (significant) rent control, definitely abolute 0 for young and able, and people have rental agreements which run easily decade(s). Ie in France its the opposite - own…

Slovakia and Czech Republic and Germany all have tenant protections. That is not the same as rent control, but you can't be kicked out randomly.

Re: Why are most sofas so bad?

#734

Post by tptacek »

rayiner wrote: post #227

Sofas and rugs are inherently labor-intensive things to make well, where quality materials make a huge difference. I grew up with real wool-silk rugs my parents brought over from old country, or my dad bought on work trips to Afghanistan or Pakistan. I never gave them a second thought until I bought my own house and tried to furnish it. What I had thought were just regular rugs would cost $5,000+ in America.

Rugs are famously an expensive luxury item.

Re: Why are most sofas so bad?

#735

Post by ericd »

Aeolun wrote: post #679
ericd wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, antique stores are stuffed to the gills with heirloom class furniture, and it doesn’t cost 100x the amount. Gorgeous solid cherry, mahogany, etc, where even the backs and drawer bottoms are solid can be had for a song. We recently tried to find a mostly solid wood IKEA dresser, but because they’re switching all their designs to new anti-tip designs over the next few months, almost everything was out of…

Hmm, I’m not sure that’s necessarily true everywhere. We replaced our IKEA (or equivalent) stuff with solid wood antiques and they were all $1000+. We had only two items to really replace, but compared to the $50 that the IKEA stuff cost it was quite an expense.

Yeah, maybe this place was unusually cheap, but chatting with the owner made it sound like the supply far outstripped the demand, so I don’t think that’s fundamentally true. That said, I’d still take the $1000 solid antique over the $600 mostly solid IKEA piece.

Re: Why are most sofas so bad?

#736

Post by yencabulator »

fsckboy wrote: post #719
sgc wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bought their highest end leather couch with a fold out bed a couple years ago, due to time constraints. I was very unhappy to see it was made from chipboard. Of course their shelves and such you can see what you are buying, but I would not trust anything upholstered myself.

> their shelves and such you can see what you are buying no you can't, the outside shell of each shelf completely hides what's inside. I wanted to reconfigure a shelf (turn it on it's side, combine it with another) and turns out the "boards" are hollow. There is something inside at the corner pre-drilled-screw anchor points, but that's the only place you can attach something, the rest of it is potemkin shelf. You get…

One of the things that complicates this conversation is that people who are huge fans of some specific Ikea furniture model bought it X years ago, and in the meanwhile its construction methods have switched to something cheaper. The "same" product can be both good and bad, depending on the year it was made.

Re: Why are most sofas so bad?

#737

Post by gerdesj »

malka wrote: post #472
gerdesj wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently visited Hong Kong. In a mall I spotted a shop called Sinéquanone (sic). It was flogging "French fashion", quite pricy "French fashion". Who knows, it might be French inspired. You can tell its authentic French thanks to the e acute and the trailing e! Sine qua non is Latin. To be fair, the quality did look pretty decent but marketing needs to try harder. Mind you that's not the daftest brand name or tradem…

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin%C3%A9quanone The brand actually existed.

Well that's me shot out of the water! It looks like someone bought a brand name and got it a bit wrong, through lack of understanding but who cares when the cash is running in and its not harming anyone.

Sadly this rings too true, rather closer to home. I own a smart new EV - an MG4. MG is a long standing British Marque. I know my car is largely Chinese.

I went to school in Abingdon, Oxfordshire, UK which is where the Morris Garage originated. My dad drove an MG Midgit in the '60s. My mum owned a Morris 1000 (Moggie). My granddad (Morris Oxford) ... well you get the idea.

In the end you have to decide for yourself exactly what you get when you buy a brand or even what a brand means in the first place.

I quite like my car but I do "firewall" it somewhat - I'm an IT consultant by trade.

Re: Why are most sofas so bad?

#739

Post by virtualritz »

I dunno, but "design" sofas aren't that bad. Of course, you pay for this. My modular Cor Trio sofa has a list price of 6,500€ in the configuration I own. See [1] for a simpler one.

One contributing factor is the fabric you choose. But the biggest one is labor. The wooden construction uses only solid wood too but that is the least cost either way.

What I did when buying it is that I made a list of all design furniture shops in Berlin that sold Cor.

Then I drove to each of them and asked: this is my best price from your competitors. What is yours? In the end I actually paid 4,500€. I also learned the margin is ~45% of the list price for the shop.

Which gives you an idea about material and labor prices when you produce in Europe. I.e. Cor sells this to the shop for around 3k€. That already includes their margin. I would think producing this has costs of at least 50% of that attached. I.e. 1.5k€ for labor and materials.

I just started helping a friend re-produce an old design classic of his [2] as WFH has made requests for it spike. It's not a sofa, strictly speaking, but the changes in costs probably make it worth mentioning them in this context.

When we produced the first series, ca. 2004, we had material, CNC and labor costs of around 1,000€. Without upholstery. Upholstery varies greatly depending on finish. Different fabrics and leathers have very different prices and labor costs attached.

We are now looking at over 4k€ for labor and wood (it's made of Ceiba which is difficulty to source). I.e. we have a ~300% raise in production costs over 20 years in Europe (not counting upholstery!).

If we wanted to keep the previous price, we needed to switch to cheaper wood and move production outside of Europe. At the moment we are just considering targeting a wealthier clientele. Not everyone has this luxury though.

I guess I'm saying I dunno how much these factors play a role in the enshittification of sofas everywhere. But they probably do ... :]

[1] https://www.prooffice.de/shop/cor-trio-sofa.html

[2] https://www.saschaulber.com/shop/coffy/

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