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Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

techcrunch.com

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Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#731

Post by dwaite »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #620
yakkityyak wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t quite understand why they happily subscribe to this model with Xbox PlayStation and Nintendo, but are adamant about getting their way with Google and Apple.

Logistically speaking: By the time the dust settles on such lawsuits, the next generation is here while the companies can use whatever loopholes to stall out for another generation. Consoles are so ephemeral in the grand scheme of things, and lawsuits take so long, that it's not worth it. Meanwhile, mobile OS's have been around for 15+ years and seem to be there for the long run. Playing the long game makes sense. --…

> Consoles are so ephemeral in the grand scheme of things, and lawsuits take so long, that it's not worth it.

SOME consoles are sold at close to margins or even a loss at launch, making up for it later.

Other companies like Nintendo have gone many generations selling at a profit at launch.

So should Nintendo not be allowed to make the same revenue cut that other console makers get?

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#732

Post by [deleted] »

zmmmmm wrote: post #707

In some ways it makes me question if it's impossible to have one without the other - can you have a company that is as obsessive about quality as Apple at the same time as one that won't attempt to exert monopolistic control over its whole ecosystem? Are these two sides of the same coin? I'd like to embrace something like the Vision Pro. But as long as it's an iPad strapped to your face fully locked to this controlle…

[deleted]

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#733

Post by cute_boi »

dwaite wrote: post #717
Phrodo_00 wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Publishing a Chrome browser extension more-or-less requires being a customer of the Chrome Web Store Emphasis on more-or-less, though. You can use Chrome developer mode (which is NOT a paid option and doesn't require an account) to import extensions from files. You can't do that in iOS. That's Epic's point.

Do you think this is a viable distribution model for web extensions, e.g. an alternative to the Chrome Web Store?

Yes, for user like me. I checked most of the extension I use. They directly come from github, and I generally don't update extension, so there is no fear of some sketchy website buying the extension company.

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#735

Post by sshine »

ethbr1 wrote: post #682
can16358p wrote: post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar here. I like their products, their design and don't have anything better to my needs. I even find some sense about this whole DMA thing to their respect. But their user hostility and "you are wrong we are always right and we never accept that we are wrong" kind of gaslighting attitude of them as a company really makes me lose trust in them as a customer. While I still use Apple devices, I wouldn't have though…

The reason I haven't bought into the Apple mobile ecosystem wholly is because of the power they could exert. My friends' counterarguments were always that they did not currently exert that power to the detriment of users. To which my reply was "Show me a few down quarters, missed growth targets, or a threat to one of their primary sources of revenue and see what they do." Any company should always be expected to path…

> if it needs to generate profit.

And especially if it needs to retain control of its platform.

Just look at Microsoft’s dark patterns when it comes to browser control. And this is after the EU find them like a billion dollars on the exact same pattern 15-20 years ago with IE.

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#736

Post by [deleted] »

zmmmmm wrote: post #707

In some ways it makes me question if it's impossible to have one without the other - can you have a company that is as obsessive about quality as Apple at the same time as one that won't attempt to exert monopolistic control over its whole ecosystem? Are these two sides of the same coin? I'd like to embrace something like the Vision Pro. But as long as it's an iPad strapped to your face fully locked to this controlle…

[deleted]

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#737

Post by spease »

pjerem wrote: post #641
wkat4242 wrote: post #609

Ummm lol. So now sideloading is allowed (with lots of costs associated mind you) and if someone wants to use it Apple will just kick them off the platform? :') So first malicious compliance with all the inflated costs and then they don't even allow people to use it. I really hope the EU will crack down on this BS and force Apple to allow real sideloading. But anyway I've written Apple out of my life a long time ago.

> But anyway I've written Apple out of my life a long time ago. I love my iPhone and my Mac. They are great devices. I’ve been using Apple products happily despite having pretty few acquaintance with the Apple brand (which I feel incredibly arrogant). All of those stories about the DMA and the total lack of good faith from Apple when it comes to respect the rules are making me strongly reconsider buying new Apple pro…

> They are actively and publicly fighting against my (their customer) interests.

If Apple allowed unrestricted sideloading or third-party app stores, then it loses its leverage to hold apps accountable to any guidelines.

A few major players would switch to using the alternative method (eg Amazon would want to sell digital items and use its own payment system), legitimizing it, and then everyone who wants to ignore the guidelines for less admirable reasons would follow suit.

Less technically savvy users would follow the prompts to install an app with extremely mixed results. And once there's no one way to install apps, it makes it that much harder for them to tell if an app is legitimate or not.

That's maybe fine for more technical users, but for people who just want to use their phone as an appliance rather than verify the chain of trust for an app, there's no discernible benefit. The time required to verify an app is non-negligible, and the risk is pretty much infinite with respect to what information they give it.

And sometimes you don't really have a choice whether to use an app or not. Your employer or locale may make or imply decisions on service providers for you, and the reason for choosing those service providers likely has nothing to do with how their app treats end users. They won't need to clear any quality bar to offer an app at all, and a locked-in customer has less negotiating power than Apple.

Apple has positioned itself as a premium product which is going to make things simpler (ie reducing executive overhead) by making decisions for you. Saying "no" to features to keep things focused for the largest group of users is hard, and those decisions are going to trend towards the largest demographic using the platform, which is probably less-technical users who don't hang out on HN. If you want to customize the platform, then that's Android's competitive edge.

You can even sideload apps with a developer license - that's essentially how UTM is installed: https://docs.getutm.app/installation/ios/

While that does mean you have to put down more $$, it also effectively narrows the people sideloading apps to people who "know what they're doing" (or at least have demonstrated a higher bar of tech-savviness and clicked through more legal waivers)

What do you want to do now that you can't do with the current state of affairs?

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#738

Post by johnnyanmac »

dwaite wrote: post #725
johnnyanmac wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What does a game console manufacturer do that Apple does not? Take it to the other extreme: what does a PC manufacturer do that Apple does not? Why not let Windows close down and take 30% on any program installed on Windows? Or go along with its old plans to enforce only signed Windows Store apps to be installed on Windows 12? It's ultimately just history and culture. We consider general purpose computing to be ope…

> Take it to the other extreme: what does a PC manufacturer do that Apple does not? Why not let Windows close down and take 30% on any program installed on Windows? I mean, why not? They did so in the past (Windows 10 S). I think it turned out to be a terrible business move on Microsoft's part that didn't pan out, but why would it be regulated against now?

>I mean, why not? They did so in the past (Windows 10 S).

probably because they don't want to bring up old wounds regarding antitrust. 10 S was trying to go around it by more or less making a mobile device with some desktop functionality. Worked out about as well as Windows 10 mobile.

>but why would it be regulated against now?

well, IOS is being regulated against now, so there's your reason.

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#739

Post by pavlov »

plandis wrote: post #723
pavlov wrote: post #693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow I doubt that the EU competition authority will appreciate Apple’s logic that criticizing their implementation of pro-competition regulation is valid grounds for preventing a competitor from accessing said implementation. It’s like if your parents forced you to give a slice of your birthday cake to your little brother, and in spite you intentionally cut him a slice with no frosting. When he complains, you go:…

> In the past, Epic has entered into agreements with Apple and then broken them That sounds like a legitimate reason to not do business with Epic to me?

Epic’s past behavior didn’t occur in the EU and was aimed at getting Apple to make the kind of concessions that the EU is now forcing upon them.

Epic seems to have followed the letter of the DMA by setting up a European subsidiary that deals with Apple’s European subsidiary. My feeling is that the antitrust people at the European Commission won’t be happy with Apple’s refusal to give them access.

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#740

Post by makeitdouble »

zmmmmm wrote: post #707

In some ways it makes me question if it's impossible to have one without the other - can you have a company that is as obsessive about quality as Apple at the same time as one that won't attempt to exert monopolistic control over its whole ecosystem? Are these two sides of the same coin? I'd like to embrace something like the Vision Pro. But as long as it's an iPad strapped to your face fully locked to this controlle…

An obsession over quality would have Apple open the door to better audio services like Spotify to integrate with the phone's audio database for instance. Or have Kindle like apps let their user have the better purchasing experience. Or better browsers to have deeper system integration. Better messaging platforms interoperate with iMessage. A 3.5mm jack to have the best latency and highest potential audio quality. The list goes on and on.

Apple values quality, but not above everything else. This is obvious and totally normal for a company, it's just weird it bears repeating so much.

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