Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war • Hacker News Board

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#731

Post by gataca » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 1:56 PM UTC

Qem wrote: post #725

gataca wrote: post #699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Ministry has no verifiable history of being wrong on the civilian casualty numbers This is laughable. They claimed that Israel bombed a hospital and killed 500 people that the Palestinians themselves bombed. You are either hopelessly biased and unserious or uninformed.

> They claimed that Israel bombed a hospital and killed 500 people The claims appear to be founded: https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/israeli-disi...

Even Human Rights Watch (anti-israel propaganda outlet at this point) has said it was a Palestinian rocket:

"However, the sound preceding the explosion, the fireball that accompanied it, the size of the resulting crater, the type of splatter adjoining it, and the type and pattern of fragmentation visible around the crater are all consistent with the impact of a rocket.

Evidence available to Human Rights Watch makes the possibility of a large air-dropped bomb, such as those Israel has used extensively in Gaza, highly unlikely."

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17...

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#732

Post by YavuzKrgl » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 1:57 PM UTC

gataca wrote: post #577

jay-barronville wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t rocket science. Israel has killed more than 13,000 children in less than 5 months. This is only counting the children. That’s almost 4.5 9/11’s in children alone. And our (Americans) taxpayer dollars is helping sponsor these war crimes. Israel has one of the most advanced military and intelligence apparatuses in the world. And Palestinians are some of the most surveilled humans in the world. Israel knows w…

Setting aside the fact that these are numbers provided by Hamas, the same people who claimed 500 people died in a hospital Israel bombed but when it was revealed their own rocket bombed it the casualty numbers dropped 10-fold, war isn’t arithmetic. The United States killed many more Japanese civilians than American civilians who died during the war, that doesn’t make them right. Hamas has miles of tunnels to provide…

It turned out that the footage presented by israel as "a rocket fired by the Islamic Jihad fell on the hospital" was a lie.[0]

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Qp8hVg9X0

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#733

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 1:57 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #685

incognos wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about when the occupier does morally reprehensible things? how should you react? turn the other cheek? Thank you sir, may I have another... ( https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/misc/634kfc.... ) Notably: The main rules o f the law applicable in case of occupation state that: The occupant does not acquire sovereignty over the territory. Occupation is only a temporary situation, and the rights of the o…

There is the legal - armed resistance to an occupation is legal - and there is moral - armed resistance attacking unarmed civilians is never morally right. Settling occupied territory is neither legal, nor moral. Bombing hospitals is both illegal and immoral, as so many other things the IDF has been doing for the past months. Then there are the crimes committed against Palestinians over the past 80 or so years - it's…

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Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#734

Post by jncfhnb » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 1:58 PM UTC

GordonS wrote: post #640

jncfhnb wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not ignore, no. But the bar for holding one accountable for collateral damage changes. Considering, for example, the staggering scale of tunnels that have been built to funnel military supplies through civilians areas; clearing operations to destroy these areas entirely feels defensible. When a hospital is used as an arms hub, it is incredibly complex and costly to try and seize it by encirclement and small arms sieg…

> the staggering scale of tunnels that have been built to funnel military supplies through civilians areas; clearing operations to destroy these areas entirely feels defensible "clearing operations" for tunnels involves heavy bombing above ground, which will kill civilians and destroy civilian homes and infrastructure - there is nothing "defensible" about that. Also, many tunnels are supposedly used for civilian smug…

Clearing operations have largely been bulldozers, not leveling an area with bombs. Yes, it does suck for the civilians. Yes there is immense collateral damage. What would you do differently when you know terrorists funded by a hostile third party have an extensive tunnel network though? I’m sorry but you cannot allow it to exist. You have to destroy it.

There exact purposes of the hospital lairs used by Hamas are unclear but they’re indisputably there and indisputably connected to these tunnels.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#735

Post by gataca » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 2:00 PM UTC

Qem wrote: post #712

gataca wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Setting aside the fact that these are numbers provided by Hamas, the same people who claimed 500 people died in a hospital Israel bombed but when it was revealed their own rocket bombed it the casualty numbers dropped 10-fold, war isn’t arithmetic. The United States killed many more Japanese civilians than American civilians who died during the war, that doesn’t make them right. Hamas has miles of tunnels to provide…

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Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#736

Post by bennyz » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 2:00 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #674

bennyz wrote: post #672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are moving the goalposts and reaching. Administrative detention is used on Israelis too, this is not the argument here. Those released in the latest exchange and in the Gilad Shalit exchange were convicted, many of which had innocent blood on their hands. Hamas isn't looking to correct the Israeli justice system, and you are calling actual and attempted murderers hostages...

Way, way back there was an IDF officer who said, in TV, after having a Palestinian boys arm broken something along the lines of "he wont throw a stone with that arm any time soon". I hope that this is not the standard we hold, because if it is, there is no moral ground anymore to stand on when it comes to denouncing terrorism.

Police brutality isn't something specific to this region (IDF is policing in the west bank), or to Palestinians in the region. Hamas murdered and kidnapped hundreds of civilians to protest this?

I think it's pretty clear that Hamas would prioritize the release of a high ranking terrorist with civilian blood on their hands over someone that may be wrongfully detained.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#737

Post by gataca » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 2:01 PM UTC

jay-barronville wrote: post #714

gataca wrote: post #699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Ministry has no verifiable history of being wrong on the civilian casualty numbers This is laughable. They claimed that Israel bombed a hospital and killed 500 people that the Palestinians themselves bombed. You are either hopelessly biased and unserious or uninformed.

> They claimed that Israel bombed a hospital and killed 500 people that the Palestinians themselves bombed. Please source your claim as I did mine.

Here you go:

"However, the sound preceding the explosion, the fireball that accompanied it, the size of the resulting crater, the type of splatter adjoining it, and the type and pattern of fragmentation visible around the crater are all consistent with the impact of a rocket.

Evidence available to Human Rights Watch makes the possibility of a large air-dropped bomb, such as those Israel has used extensively in Gaza, highly unlikely."

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17...

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#738

Post by gryzzly » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 2:01 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #719

gryzzly wrote: post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the point here is that stone throwing kills people, it’s not a joke. so the policy of it being illegal and punishable is not a "crushing" or "hate crime" and definitely is not "hostage taking".

If peopel are properly, as in a proper, fair and unbiased trial, based on equally fair and balanced laws, convicted, sure, you are right. Holding people without charges is defenitely not that. If it were, whatever Russia is doing with people opposing the war Ukraine would totally swell as well. And it isn't. You onw what else kills people, and is illegal by international law? Throwing bombs on civilians. Espesially i…

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Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#739

Post by incognos » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 2:02 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #605

incognos wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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> How does one become a "former Palestinian" I guess by obtaining a different citizenship and renouncing the original one, but tbh I expect parent poster meant folks who were born in another country from Palestinian parents.

Hardly, a Palestinian has no governing authority allowing it to issue a passport or proof of citizenship. This again is controlled by Israel. So your argument does not hold water.

I found the use of the term "Former Palestinian" offensive. It implies that you are no longer such. Regardless of your citizenship, your ancestry defines your ethnic group. Palestinians are an ethnic group. Those born by parents of said ethnic group are de facto of that ethnic group.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#740

Post by incognos » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 2:02 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #713

incognos wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, Hamas's charter states that it's issue is with the Zionist Project and not Jews. They specifically speak about coexistence, albeit in a single entity called Palestine. There is not language to exclude other ethnicities or religions, only to remove the colonialist movement referred to as Zionism - which is not Judaism.

> FWIW, Hamas's charter states that it's issue is with the Zionist Project and not Jews. Oh yes! Still, that's an untenable position. Israel was created so that all Jews could have a state of their own because of the suffering inflicted upon them. There really is no going back on that. For me, a single democratic and secular state, with a legal framework that protects everybody's rights equally and fairly would be th…

But yet, a single democratic secular state is something that is in the hands of the occupier and their supporters. The Palestinian Authority agreed to the Oslo Accords in 1993 to create a 2 state solution - why has Israel and the USA dragged their feet? Israel has constantly and consistently broken the terms of this agreement without repercussion. We would not be in this situation now if this was enforced then.

Let the pot boil long enough, it will overflow.