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Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

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Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#731

Post by raxxorraxor »

xp84 wrote: post #694
jjav wrote: post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where to draw the line? It's definitely murky. It shouldn't be murky at all. For all of the history of humanity, privacy has been the default state. I could talk to people face to face (what used to be the only way) and it was by default private. I could keep written notes and records and they were by default private. There were special-case mechanisms to violate that privacy (e.g. search warrants, targeted spying)…

> special-case mechanisms to violate that privacy (e.g. search warrants, targeted spying)… go through a process with some checks and balances. I don't have any objection to this type of spying I think this is why it’s such a hot issue though. E2E Encryption is a “get out of all surveillance free card.” Even a mildly trained criminal or terrorist can easily guarantee that his communications will never be intercepted.…

These checks and balances are an illusion. They do not work. Courts are overwhelmed with work and suddenly will sign anything. Minimal impact and minimal risk aside for the victim.

An experienced and higher public official will get permission for everything. There is neither a check, nor any balance at all. This is true for every country that pretends surveillance would happen with care.

> get out of all surveillance free card.

Because it is the only encryption that works.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#732

Post by raxxorraxor »

lynx23 wrote: post #475
vbo wrote: post #419

I feel we've been collectively losing the battle to keep our conversations private. The anti-encryption laws are likely vocally opposed only by a minority, while the majority believes they had no privacy to begin with and governments can read your messages at a whim. And perhaps that's true to some extent. But since most people believe the battle is lost, moreso that this has always been the status quo, then any batt…

To me, there is one big argument for privacy: You never know what your govewrnment will change into in the next few years. This basic argument for encryption is often raised in combination with countries which we already consider non-free. But, frankly, I have finally learned the true meaning of this message during COVID times. I would never have expected society deteriorating into this fear/hate driven, media induce…

You assume your current government to be benevolent. We see a lot of political prosecution from these benevolent governments even today.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#733

Post by scarface_74 »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #717
scarface_74 wrote: post #706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did your app purchases form the Google Play Store automatically transfer to your Apple App store Since every app that I pay to use that has an Android version is subscription based, yes. > and did your photos off your Google drive transfer to your iCloud, or vice-versa? Since I can download the Google Drive app on my iPhone and it shows up right next to iCloud Drive on the Files app and in File dialogs. Yes. As far…

>As far as photos from iCloud to Google, just download Google Photos on your iPhone and sync your photos. That's not a direct transfer, it's a workaround which requires you to have free storage on your phone greater than the amount of photos you have.

No it doesn’t. Google uses the standard photos API.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#734

Post by scarface_74 »

_cenw wrote: post #728
scarface_74 wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you ever actually tried to convince a non-technical friend or family member to use a different platform for communicating How many non technical people have heard of Discord?

Essentially everyone my age and down? I'm a late millennial. If the number in your name is your birth year I'm not too surprised, but don't assume you can project from your own experience onto others 1:1.

How many millennials on down are “non technical” at least to the point that they can’t download an app?

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#735

Post by raxxorraxor »

abigail95 wrote: post #631
zarzavat wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK and China are not comparable. China is the worlds most populous country (for now). The UK has a population of under 70m. China is a totalitarian regime where even an imperfect freedom is preferable to no freedom at all. The UK is a democratic country which should be upholding the right to privacy. If Apple weakens crypto for the UK, it affects people in other countries as well. iMessage is not exactly popular…

No, the UK is a democratic country that is voting to reduce privacy. A massive company in a foreign country affecting the laws of your own is anti-democratic. Democracy doesn't mean privacy.

Democracy requires privacy if you take a few minutes (shouldn't take too long) to think about it. And not even just a bit of it, it is often required for voting to be anonymous for similar or the same reasons.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#736

Post by raxxorraxor »

r00fus wrote: post #674
acuozzo wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The UK keeps trying to throw their weight around only to find out they aren’t that big. Their (former) empire is a part of their cultural identity. It's going to take a few more generations to shed the expectations of what was. The days of two washed-up subjects of the crown taking Kafiristan all on their lonesome are dead and gone.

I think it'll die in this generation itself. The UK with Brexit are starting to find out very quickly how insignificant their nation is and how easy it is to route around the oversized egos of their so-called leaders.

The ambitions of the EU to weaken encryption aren't different to that of the UK. So that isn't a relevant factor at all.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#737

Post by scarface_74 »

_cenw wrote: post #729
scarface_74 wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone is forcing you to use Discord? An app that I personally have never used?

You are rude enough that I'm tempted to say "OK Boomer" because you clearly are a different generation with no insight into mine.

So is there now a law saying that you must use Discord?

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#738

Post by InsomniacL »

kstrauser wrote: post #177
InsomniacL wrote: post #145

I'm not against breaking e2ee when the right protections are in place. 1, Court signed order 2, Public Disclosure during prosecution or within X time of the court order being signed (including when no wrongdoing found) 3, Some sort of test to ensure it's not misused (imminent threat to life, serious crime like murder/child kidnap or something) The idea that a judge can order a cavity search to find information leadin…

E2EE is a true/false label. Either it is, or it ain’t. It is not mathematically possible to selectively break E2EE. If it’s broken, it’s not E2EE.

The device manufacture could silently push an update to reveal the keys? but the semantics of a label aren't important.

I think the important question is should an authority be able to read messages and if so, under what circumstances?

What if it's to prevent a major terrorist attack, should you have an absolute right to privacy so much so that, a means that would never be used against you can't exist even if it means the loss of a lot of life?

As I say, I think the question should be around where we draw the line and what protections we put in place to ensure it's not crossed.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#739

Post by stuart78 »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #716
dralley wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I feel we've been collectively losing the battle to keep our conversations private. A big part of the issue is that the nature of the conversations has changed. Mail and Telephones were never at any point perfectly private. The idea of having complete privacy in such conversations is actually rather new. The difference is that those communication mediums now represent nearly all communication, rather than a small fr…

> Mail and Telephones were never at any point perfectly private In principle they were not private but in practice they were because in most places the police had to realize that there was a conversation of interest, get a warrant, and use scarce resources. Now the authorities are able to use machines to monitor traffic patterns for almost all communication the cost of interception is much lower.

The FBI has a history of illegal wiretapping as old as the organization itself. To keep it relevant to one of this weekend's big film openings, you can read all about how illegal recordings fed the hearings that stripped Oppenheimer of his security clearance. And the tradition extends to many other prominent figures including Martin Luther King. And today, this kind of surveillance continues through through more modern guises [0]. The volume of these 702 searches is dramatically down, which is good, but there is no reason to assume that it will stay that way.

Point being, one shouldn't assume that government agencies will adhere to the standard we might wish them to when choosing means of investigation or surveillance.

[0] https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/fbi-warra...

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#740

Post by PawgerZ »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #31
edandersen wrote: post #18

Are iMessage and Facetime disabled in China?

iMessage and FaceTime are available in China, but it hardly matters because most communication in China happens over WeChat. If all the important stuff is happening over the heavily monitored app, leaving a few scragglers is not a big deal. Especially because, it's not like a criminal gang is going to have the money to arm every member with an iPhone with China's wages (and the ones that do are likely white-collar an…

It is technically E2EE, but the keys are stored by a Chinese company. So, yeah it's not encrypted from the Chinese government.
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